Apt defense / I think I want a 9 Ruger

[Golden_006]

Is a handgun a better home defense option than a shotgun in an apt.?

 

[Trebor]

They both have their uses.

A shotgun is best for once you have holed up inside your bedroom. You can cover the door with the shotgun while warning the bad guy away through the door. If he comes through you have the shotgun ready.

A handgun is best for when you need to move through your apartment. Because it can be used with one hand you can hold it while you open and close doors, turn on lights, etc.

You can also discretely carry a handgun when you answer an unexpected knock at the door which is something you can't do with a shotgun.

For either one use appropriate self defense ammo. You want a modern JHP round for the handgun and, typically, 00 buck for the shotgun.

Be aware that overpenetration is always a concern and there is really nothing you can do to totally eliminate that concern. Any ammunition that will penetrate deeply enough into a human to stop an attacker will also penetrate drywal. There's just no way around it. Avoid gimmicks like frangible rounds or birdshot for the shotgun. You don't want to compromise your ability to stop the attacker with a less efficient load.

You also want to avoid rounds that are known to have greater then normal risk of overpenetration. This includes FMJ rounds for handguns and slugs for the shotgun. These will penetrate more layers of drywall or other building material then JHP or shot.

 

[Kingofthehill]

I disagree with not using birdshot in a shotgun. I live in an apartment and my my shotgun i stagger my load. First shot is bird shot, the rest is 00 buck.

I would love to see someone prove that being shot within 15' with bird shot won't get the job done. In my opinion, if that first shot doesn't stop him from coming, the next one will.. but i take the possibility and probability of a missed shot very seriously.

JOe

 

[possum]

depends
with you being a "wall" away from other people that are innocent bystandards it would probally be best for you to go with a shotgun and this is gonna sound crazy but maybe just maybe bird shot is the answer for you. i didn't even have that thought cross my mind until i watched one of Rob Pincus' many great videos and he did test with rifles, handguns and shotguns and how much they penetrated through "walls" and it was suprising to me, that handgun bullets went through alot of the "walls"(standard calibers ie 9mm, .40, and 45acp), .223/5.56 went through less because it starts to fragment and loose size and energy, slugs, "00" punched through alot of the "walls" and the birdshot was about the best as far as over penetration is concerned.

if you lived in a single family house, and there wasn't other people literally on the other side of the wall between the 2 apartments you would have more choices, however as it stands i would if in your sittuation highly consider bird shot, or at or atleast some low recoil, #4 buckshot etc.

though you are defending yourself you are responsible for every bullet/ projectille that comes out of that gun.

 

[SideArmed]

Good response by Trebor, I would agree

 

[Webbj0219]

I think Ive read in Massad's book "The gravest extreme" of cases where bird shot wasnt able to penetrate a heavy winter jacket. Not 100% if it was that book, but almost 100%. So I would recomend some kinda buck shot.

 

[HoosierQ]

One thing to consider...it is much easier to disarm a person with a long gun in a building than a handgun. Picture peering out into your living room armed with a shotgun. What is going first? The muzzle. At that point it is pretty grab-able. There are some, for this reason, that would advocate that the handgun is the better HD weapon in close quarters for a civilian. Obviously, the more training the better with any weapon and training with a shotgun would mitigate this risk.

I have both but a handgun is at bedside.

 

[highorder]

Any ammunition that will penetrate deeply enough into a human to stop an attacker will also penetrate drywall. There's just no way around it. Avoid gimmicks like frangible rounds or birdshot for the shotgun. You don't want to compromise your ability to stop the attacker with a less efficient load.

The truth.

I would love to see someone prove that being shot within 15' with bird shot won't get the job done.

Ask any EMT with experience with shotgun wounds.

 

[jdorian]

Trebor is awesome. I took my CCW classes from him. But I still use a Glock handgun as home protection, although when I can find a reasonable deal on a shotgun, I'll get one. Its always JHP in all mags, although I remove them when I go target shooting at paper targets. I have done enough testing with JHP will all of my guns.

 

[NG VI]

If you do decide on a shotgun, and smaller shot than 00 buck, don't go and get something like 71/2 or 8 birdshot, try small buck or if you must do birdshot, the largest birdshot you can find.

At about fifteen yards at the most 71/2 didn't penetrate the side of a computer monitor I shot with it, just the plastic. Think that will make it to someones' vitals with anything resembling reliability?

And personally I would pick a handgun over a shotgun in an apartment, specific apartment layouts notwithstanding, because of the manueverability reasons and ability to have it with you when you aren't really sure what's going on yet.

 

[jad0110]

As others have said, it depends. Both have their pluses and minuses. I use both. I have a S&W 686 at my bedside in a gunvault, and a 12 gauge pump loaded with 00 buck on a high shelf in the closet, if I am able to get to it. Also, during the day I am usually carrying my CCW.

Any ammunition that will penetrate deeply enough into a human to stop an attacker will also penetrate drywall. There's just no way around it. Avoid gimmicks like frangible rounds or birdshot for the shotgun. You don't want to compromise your ability to stop the attacker with a less efficient load.

The truth.

Agree as well. The lightest load I'd ever go in a HD shotgun, personally, would be a BB load of some type, but I'd much prefer #4 Buck. But the 9 pellet 00 Federal Tacticle with FliteControl wad patterns about 4" at 15 yards out of my Mossberg 590 (with the wad often hitting within that 4" group as well), so that's what I stick with. A friend's 590 actually patterns 1-2" at the same distance with the same load!

 

[Sheepdog1968]

They both have their uses.

A shotgun is best for once you have holed up inside your bedroom. You can cover the door with the shotgun while warning the bad guy away through the door. If he comes through you have the shotgun ready.

A handgun is best for when you need to move through your apartment. Because it can be used with one hand you can hold it while you open and close doors, turn on lights, etc.

You can also discretely carry a handgun when you answer an unexpected knock at the door which is something you can't do with a shotgun.

For either one use appropriate self defense ammo. You want a modern JHP round for the handgun and, typically, 00 buck for the shotgun.

Be aware that overpenetration is always a concern and there is really nothing you can do to totally eliminate that concern. Any ammunition that will penetrate deeply enough into a human to stop an attacker will also penetrate drywal. There's just no way around it. Avoid gimmicks like frangible rounds or birdshot for the shotgun. You don't want to compromise your ability to stop the attacker with a less efficient load.

You also want to avoid rounds that are known to have greater then normal risk of overpenetration. This includes FMJ rounds for handguns and slugs for the shotgun. These will penetrate more layers of drywall or other building material then JHP or shot.

+100 Very wise words in this answer.

 

[Kingofthehill]

You want a modern JHP round for the handgun.

Although it sounds like you know what you are doing and well respected. I have something to add from that statement.

From testing i have done with 12 different JHP's 2 frangibles and 1 soft point and a Glasser. all done with 9mm loads out of a Glock 19. The only ones that didn't over penetrate too much drywall were the Frangables (Extreme shock, and Hornady Tap) and the Glasser.

The Hollow points all failed (except Hornady critical Defense it stopped inbetween the 2nd and 3rd) to expand past 3 sheets of drywall. They all clogged with the particles from the drywall.

In my handguns that are around my place, they are filled with hydrashocks for only 1 reason. That's the simple fact that they are proven rounds and the local PD uses the same ones. Im not REALLY worried about over penetration because truth be told, If it came down to it... i plan on shooting a lot of ammo and im sure i will miss at least once. that missed round doesn't give a rats ass about over penetration and is going to go along its merry way.

I think about it all the time, I study it far more than a civilian probably should. I read and read and read, take classes, have the DVD's and have tested myself.

truth be told, there are just too many damn variables. what works today, might not work tomorrow. That "Lot" of ammo that you tested with, MAY not be the same Lot you have loaded in your mags.

what if the perp hides behind the wall and is in movie style fire fight? then i plan on shooting RIGHT at the wall where i expect him to be and i damn well hope that round over penetrates enough to still kill the BG.

Do the research, plan it out and decide what is best for you in your situation. Take all the professional advise and decide for yourself.

My .02c

 

[Cpt. America]

Shotgun with 00 buck would do the job. A web page that might help is www.theboxotruth.com. All kinds of good information.
I personally use a modified AK and a .357 mag for a sock drawer pistol.

 

[A2lockdown]

someone wanted an EMT with experience in shotgun wounds....guess i can comment on this one. most birdshot wounds are NOT lethal. i saw a guy who got a full load of some kind of birdshot in the center of his lower chest/abd at close range (opened the wrong door), he didnt fight anymore but he was conscious and could have shot back. i would have lost money on him breathing at all and i would bet if i showed anyone on here a pic of it (i dont have one) you would say instant kill. and ive seen others that didnt incapacitate the bad guy whatsoever. bird shot is just that, for birds. never seen anyone survive a chest hit with buckshot, it may have happened but it doesnt happen often.

look at the box o truth website, it tests this exact situation.

tactical buckshot is what i use and recommend to people who trust their lives to my advice. i take that VERY seriously.

handguns are easier to manuver but are much harder for most people to use effectively, and a short barrelled shotgun doesnt really give up much.

as was stated earlier, anything that will be effective can cause problems if it goes somewhere it shouldnt. try both, get proper instruction, practice lots, then practice more. only you can decide what fits your needs best.

 

[Patriotme]

Trebor gave very good advice.
I'd like to add one thing about frangible ammo. It's freakin expensive. You'll hear some people tell you to buy it because of the lack of penetration and it's suitability for apartments. That's partially true but you are looking at a semi auto and considering that frangible ammo averages about $20 for 7 rnds (Haven't priced it a while...forgive me if I'm way off) it's unlikely that you will shoot enough of this to know if it's reliable in your gun.

 

[highorder]

It bears repeating:

someone wanted an EMT with experience in shotgun wounds....guess i can comment on this one.

most birdshot wounds are NOT lethal.

 

[rcmodel]

There is bird shot, and then there is bird shot.

I have most of a box of old Super-X Magnum #2 lead shells that nobody's goose-down coat is gonna stop or slow down inside an apartment I betcha!

I have the utmost confidence they would stop Attila the Hun and his leather shield if he was inside my house.

But we ain't talking about #8 quail loads here either.

rc

 

[wankerjake]

I have most of a box of old Super-X Magnum #2 lead shells that nobody's goose-down coat is gonna stop or slow down inside an apartment I betcha!

I have the utmost confidence they would stop Attila the Hun and his leather shield if he was inside my house.

I agree. Most non-lethal birdshot wounds happen at distances greater than home defense distances. Anybody ever shot birdshot at something solid at 15 feet (5 yards)? The pattern is the size of a silver dollar, maybe a fist, depending on choke. You hit somebody square with #7 1/2 shot at 15 feet and they're not getting up. #2 lead shot, no question in my mind. I'd have to see that to believe it.

That being said, I don't have birdshot in my HD shotgun. I'm using #4 buck, which I also have no doubt is plenty adequate. If I can kill coyotes with it at 40 yards, it's gonna smoke a person at 15 feet.

 

[DFW1911]

Please see Possum's answer - I am in agreement.

 

[btg3]

Won't take credit as I saw it elsewhere, but the concern with over-pentration thru walls can be mitigated by taking a knee and shooting at an upward angle. It may not be appropriate for every situation, but worth considering.