AR-15 Article: Some Won't Like It, But....

[WrongHanded]

What's the general issue rifle for the US military?

We both know what it is. Does that mean it's the best thing for the troops to have? Or is it just that the US is already so invested in it?

Seriously, as you have military experience, is there no modern rifle design out there that you think it superior to the AR?

 

[WrongHanded]

What does general issue mean to you?

The rifle handed out to infantry soldiers as a primary weapon. Sure there may be a designated marksman who cares something different, and a squad machine gunner, but both of those guys trained first on what the other guys are carrying. The primary infantry weapon is what I'm talking about when I say general issue.

 

[WrongHanded]

I love it when people who have no experience and are way out of their lane try and argue about things with people who have vast experience in those fields.

Some people listen, some people try to argue points they have no frame of reference for.

Again, experience. Equal experience with all the other modern rifle designs? Equal training? When you learn one thing and get really good with it, that can create a bias you know. I'm sure most Americans think the driver's seat is better on the left side of the car than the right, but I bet people from the UK and Japan don't think so.

I'm looking at the mechanism, and the operator functionality.

 

[C-grunt]

So the fact that new military rifles coming out like the CZ Bren series, the HK433, the FN Scar, the IWI Tavor X95, the Beratta ARX160, and others have AR like controls because Americans are used to it and nothing to do with the fact that the ergonomics are ideal?

 

[C-grunt]

The US Army has 485k Soldiers. There are roughly 25k Infantry. The Infantry are issued the M4, M4A1, and M4 SOPMOD. Depends on the unit. Throw in SOF and you add a few more in like the HK416.

There are far far more M16A2 and M16A4s issued to Soldiers than M4s.

Their in the National Guard and Reserves and you got even more M16A2 and M16A4s.

Add in the Marines and now the Infantry are carrying a different HK416 variant as well. So "General Issue" is a very imprecise term.

80+ countries field a M16/M4 variant of some sort. That list continues to grow.

 

[C-grunt]

Also, you don't have enough experience to talk about the controls with any authority. The fact that you bring up the bolt release and forward assist being on diffent sides shows this. The forward assist is used so infrequently there are legit major debates about whether or no its even needed.

The bolt catch release is positioned almost perfectly for a right handed person to insert a mag and drop the bolt. They make ambi versions, they have since the rifle was designed. The military at the time didn't want ambi. If you want ambi, get it.

Ive already covered why the charging handle is where it's at. What is your experience shooting AKs, M1 Garands, M1 Carbines, M14s, Mini 14, or SKS under barricades? Right side roll over prone under a car? What did you do to negate the risk of the reciprocating charging handle smacking the ground? How did the open action designs of the Garand, M14 , Mini, or the SKS take the dirt tunnel blasts of shooting under a car?

 

[WrongHanded]

So the fact that new military rifles coming out like the CZ Bren series, the HK433, the FN Scar, the IWI Tavor X95, the Beratta ARX160, and others have AR like controls because Americans are used to it and nothing to do with the fact that the ergonomics are ideal?

Which one of those has a T shaped handle that comes out of the back of the receiver?

 

[C-grunt]

If that's all you got, that's a weak argument.

 

[WrongHanded]

Also, you don't have enough experience to talk about the controls with any authority. The fact that you bring up the bolt release and forward assist being on diffent sides shows this. The forward assist is used so infrequently there are legit major debates about whether or no its even needed.

The bolt catch release is positioned almost perfectly for a right handed person to insert a mag and drop the bolt. They make ambi versions, they have since the rifle was designed. The military at the time didn't want ambi. If you want ambi, get it.

Ive already covered why the charging handle is where it's at. What is your experience shooting AKs, M1 Garands, M1 Carbines, M14s, Mini 14, or SKS under barricades? Right side roll over prone under a car? What did you do to negate the risk of the reciprocating charging handle smacking the ground? How did the open action designs of the Garand, M14 , Mini, or the SKS take the dirt tunnel blasts of shooting under a car?

I'm well aware that the forward assist was not part of the original design. It was added because there was a need. I'm fully aware that it's not required under normal operations. But when it's needed, it is needed. Shooting in places where debris gets into the locking lugs is a good example of when it would be needed. I know you want to think I don't know how the gun works, but I know what everything does and why. Some of it just doesn't make sense.

Right side roll over prone under a car? I'm sure Joe preppers is planning to do that just as soon as the lights go out. But if dirt gets into the locking lugs and he needs that forward assist to work, he out of luck either way. If you're worried about the reciprocating charging handle smacking the ground, you must be pretty worried about how your empty cases are actually going to eject fully and let the gun cycle having the right side of the receiver that close to the ground.

I'm well aware they make ambi version of the bolt release for ARs. I installed on on mine. Just one more thing hanging off of it. A reciprocating changing handle doesn't need it. Everything can be done from the right side, by the strong right hand dominant, average, non-tactically trained individual. You may be a highly trained elite operator, but suggesting that anyone who buys a rifle for defense in a SHTF scenario needs to be one too, is asking a bit much. I would think that would be obvious, but I guess not.

 

[DustyGmt]

Here is a great slow motion video of the AR15 firing. Note how much gas comes out of the chamber vs what is being used to run the action and vented out the side of the carrier.

That was satisfying. Excellent video.

 

[WrongHanded]

Alright, you know what guys. Here's the answer:

The AR is cheap, widely available, decently reliable, available in a common and inexpensive cartridge that works well enough, and it's easy to set up for the user's preferences. It's not the best at everything, and not the best design for ease of operation, nor the most mechanically streamlined, but it'll do the job. And Joe Prepper probably won't have any problems with it, if he doesn't get too crazy with modifying it.

That's all you guys had to say.

 

[C-grunt]

Right side roll over prone under a car? I'm sure Joe preppers is planning to do that just as soon as the lights go out. But if dirt gets into the locking lugs and he needs that forward assist to work, he out of luck either way. If you're worried about the reciprocating charging handle smacking the ground, you must be pretty worried about how your empty cases are actually going to eject fully and let the gun cycle having the right side of the receiver that close to the ground.

Again. Obvious you have no frame of reference.

 

[C-grunt]

I'm well aware they make ambi version of the bolt release for ARs. I installed on on mine. Just one more thing hanging off of it. A reciprocating changing handle doesn't need it. Everything can be done from the right side, by the strong right hand dominant, average, non-tactically trained individual. You may be a highly trained elite operator, but suggesting that anyone who buys a rifle for defense in a SHTF scenario needs to be one too, is asking a bit much. I would think that would be obvious, but I guess not.

Hundreds of thousands of people use ARs regularly without tactical training.

 

[WrongHanded]

Again. Obvious you have no frame of reference.

And neither does Joe Prepper. But I tell you what, if you voluntarily got under a vehicle in a firefight in the military, I'm sure there was a really good reason for it.

I can think of a whole lot of good reasons not to do the same thing out in my driveway.

Hundreds of thousands of people use ARs regularly without tactical training.

And that's got nothing to do with my point. See above where I told you I'm not getting under a car in a firefight? Neither would most of those hundreds of thousands of people. Don't you think your perspective on what the average person needs a rifle to be able to do, might be just a little skewed?

 

[C-grunt]

And that's got nothing to do with my point. See above where I told you I'm not getting under a car in a firefight? Neither would most of those hundreds of thousands of people. Don't you think your perspective on what the average person needs a rifle to be able to do, might be just a little skewed?

No. My perspective of the average person with a rofle comes from training aversge people to use rifles. And everyone I've trained on an AR type rifle has had zero issue with the ergonomics.

 

[12Bravo20]

No. My perspective of the average person with a rofle comes from training aversge people to use rifles. And everyone I've trained on an AR type rifle has had zero issue with the ergonomics.

That has been my experience also. I trained people with absolutely no firearms experience and had them not only qualifying sharpshooter or expert They were very familiar and proficient with their rifle and could maintain it with ease too. I still help people that are new to firearms or new to the AR platform and get them proficient in their use and maintenance in a short period of time.

Again, I have used the M16 from the Arctic, high mountains, deserts, and tropical jungle. The A1 and A2 always worked. I would not hesitate to grab any of my AR15 rifles for a SHTF situation.

As @C-grunt has pointed out, there are plenty of us that have used the M16A1 and/or M16A2 without major issues for the past 60 years. The AR is dependable, easy to use, easy to maintain, and easy to repair.

For the issues with the M16 in Vietnam, it boils down to a change in powder (wrong powder), lack of a chrome lined barrel, and idiots telling troops that they did not have to clean the weapon. The faults were not related to the design. One has to understand that the Army Ordinance Corp has always been against change. Look how long they fought against the use of any rifle holding more than 1 round. And yes the M16 did quite well in the hands of Special Forces advisors in Vietnam years before the Army adopted it (and made their bad changes).

 

[BreechFace]

Making ready an AR with the charging handle utilizing a high ready hold is very intuitive, easy and quick. Much of the disdain people pile on to the charging handle comes from a lack of training, fundamentals and refusal to talk about the benefits of the charging handle location as opposed to side chargers. One main benefit is how closed the system is to foreign matter as opposed to side charging rifles.

Another training point is the manipulation of the safety on an AR is very easy, which provides the ability to make ready at a moment as one is presenting the firearm towards target (disengaging) or reengaging after threat is no longer a threat.

Another great attribute is the closed receiver around the bolt, if one practices closing the dust cover after each rack/chamber or firing of shot at which point the safety is returned to safe and at the same time the dust cover is closed with the fingers of the support hand coming underneath the receiver. All of these fundamentals of usage make for a great weapon platform that is very reliable, intuitive and safe.

There have been several tests AR vs AK in a mud bath scenario in a wheelbarrow where the rifles are tried in their closed setting (AR dust cover closed, AK safety closed) and pile mud on the rifles both sides, as well as another where the chambers are open with the BCG in battery, and another with the bolt locked to the rear with chamber open.

The AR faired better in all tests, I believe the one test that the AK was close was an open chamber with the bolt locked to the rear.

 

[mavracer]

I was in that battle.

I read

Pretty much sums up this thread.

Everything can be done from the right side, by the strong right hand dominant, average, non-tactically trained individual.

That's not a plus.
And you seem even more uninitiated about the prepper community than how to properly operate an AR15.

 

[12Bravo20]

I am right handed, left eye dominant and have shot rifles left handed since I was a kid. I never had any issue operating any variant of the M16/AR15. And we didn't have any ambidextrous parts on our rifles when I was in the Army. It is not difficult at all for a left handed person to easily operate a standard M16/AR15.

The only issue I ever had was with the M16A1 (and any slick side upper) was getting hit with hot brass. And this was a common enough issue that the Bruton Bump was added to the A2 upper. Even getting hit by hot brass would not stop me from grabbing a M16A1 and using it.

 

[DustyGmt]

This was a pretty cool video with Rob-ski, 5K round durability test with an AR. Rifle took a beating. It was done with a PSA freedom rifle which was and may still be one of the cheapest AR's money can buy.....

 

[WrongHanded]

I am right handed, left eye dominant and have shot rifles left handed since I was a kid. I never had any issue operating any variant of the M16/AR15. And we didn't have any ambidextrous parts on our rifles when I was in the Army. It is not difficult at all for a left handed person to easily operate a standard M16/AR15.

The only issue I ever had was with the M16A1 (and any slick side upper) was getting hit with hot brass. And this was a common enough issue that the Bruton Bump was added to the A2 upper. Even getting hit by hot brass would not stop me from grabbing a M16A1 and using it.

It's not that it can't be done. Clearly it can be. I've done it. But it's far from preferable. And it's not really about left handed versus right handed.

My issue, at its core, is this: When people get online and ask "I want a rifle for SHTF, what should I get?" They're often flooded with responses saying "Get an AR!" and "The AR is the best choice!" But it's not always. Not for everyone, and not in all situations. We haven't even touch scenarios dealing with below freezing temperatures, such as a prolonged grid outage during a Minnesota winter. But I'm sure they'd be all sorts of excuses as to why the AR would be best for that situation too.

I've argued against the comments in favor of the AR that I believe are simply not accurate, or not applicable to many of those people looking to buy a rifle as part of their preparations. And I've come up against stiff resistance. Rather than considering the possibility that I might have valid points, I've been told repeatedly that I don't have enough experience to have a valid opinion on these issues, and that all my points are somehow wrong. That parts availability, and magazine change speed is very important, but that ease of operation and simplicity of design is not.

But if I lack the experience to have a valid opinion on what design features are or are not preferable on a rifle for a particular environment, then that means I should get an AR and just deal with it. Obviously I'm not going to do that, because I see shortcoming in the design where the rifle would not meet my particular needs well, and am not interested in dealing with them. I am confident I'm not alone in seeing that it is not the best option for all people in all situations.

 

[WrongHanded]

Pretty much sums up this thread.

That's not a plus.
And you seem even more uninitiated about the prepper community than how to properly operate an AR15.

And I'm sure other people in other countries who were issued other designs and used those in combat, would prefer what they were issued. So that's not a terribly valid point. Particularly as engaging in military combat as a trained soldier, as part of a trained and organized unit, isn't nearly the same as defending your street in the suburbs along side a few of your neighbors in a SHTF situation. I'm sure you can use your imagination as to what the differences may be.

 

[BreechFace]

We haven't even touch scenarios dealing with below freezing temperatures, such as a prolonged grid outage during a Minnesota winter. But I'm sure they'd be all sorts of excuses as to why the AR would be best for that situation too.

A big part of keeping any weapon working in extreme cold is keeping the weapon in the cold and not bringing it inside a warm environment where condensation can build up then upon leaving to go out into the cold it freezes or fogs up ones optics, hunting camp growing up taught us this nugget. So having a mud room that is unconditioned would be preferable if in a prolonged scenario where the situation is of the type we are not allowed to talk about here. But even bringing a cold weapon inside if it's maintained right, with the right lubricants and the lubricants have been given time to be absorbed into the surfaces of the metals that are being reciprocated against one can get away with much of the concerns of condensation.

There are oils and lubricants that have been developed to handle extreme cold. It's name is 'Lubricant Arctic Weapon' or 'LAW', this is to be used in place of CLP.
https://www.sportsmansguide.com/product/index/us-military-surplus-law-gun-oil-1-quart-new?a=2183264


Slip 2000 EWL is also rated down to -59* as stated on their website.
https://slip2000.com/pages/about-ewl-extreme-weapons-lubricant

I think the problem is there is a lack of people doing their due diligence in how to operate, maintain and use a life-preserving device to it's fullest. There are a lot of people who think just owning an AR15 is enough and fail to understand how to best put into service in different conditions the weapon. We Americans are an entitled, lazy bunch these days, we have forgot how to learn and process information, instead we want quick gratification rather than putting in the effort to fully understand things.

Our soldiers regularly train with Norway in arctic conditions, its a lubricant/software issue to remedy not a hardware issue. There have been countless videos, tests done on this subject, it is not a concern for AR15 usage in my opinion when one understands how to correctly maintain one's rifle in the situation one is found in.

 

[WrongHanded]

A big part of keeping any weapon working in extreme cold is keeping the weapon in the cold and not bringing it inside a warm environment where condensation can build up then upon leaving to go out into the cold it freezes or fogs up ones optics, hunting camp growing up taught us this nugget. So having a mud room that is unconditioned would be preferable if in a prolonged scenario where the situation is of the type we are not allowed to talk about here. But even bringing a cold weapon inside if it's maintained right, with the right lubricants and the lubricants have been given time to be absorbed into the surfaces of the metals that are being reciprocated against one can get away with much of the concerns of condensation.

There are oils and lubricants that have been developed to handle extreme cold. It's name is 'Lubricant Arctic Weapon' or 'LAW', this is to be used in place of CLP.
https://www.sportsmansguide.com/product/index/us-military-surplus-law-gun-oil-1-quart-new?a=2183264


Slip 2000 EWL is also rated down to -59* as stated on their website.
https://slip2000.com/pages/about-ewl-extreme-weapons-lubricant

I think the problem is there is a lack of people doing their due diligence in how to operate, maintain and use a life-preserving device to it's fullest. There are a lot of people who think just owning an AR15 is enough and fail to understand how to best put into service in different conditions the weapon. We Americans are an entitled, lazy bunch these days, we have forgot how to learn and process information, instead we want quick gratification rather than putting in the effort to fully understand things.

Our soldiers regularly train with Norway in arctic conditions, its a lubricant/software issue to remedy not a hardware issue. There have been countless videos, tests done on this subject, it is not a concern for AR15 usage in my opinion when one understands how to correctly maintain one's rifle in the situation one is found in.

Good post. I do see an issue with not keeping your weapon with you in a SHTF situation. You might need it, and leaving it outside to get stolen isn't a good idea.

 

[C-grunt]

.. We haven't even touch scenarios dealing with below freezing temperatures, such as a prolonged grid outage during a Minnesota winter. But I'm sure they'd be all sorts of excuses as to why the AR would be best for that situation too.

The US Army has bases in very cold climates such as Ft Drum in upstate New York and Ft Wainwright in Alaska. That's something like 9 infantry battalions and all their support units that regularly operate and train in sub-zero temperatures. The guns run.