AR-15 Options for Whitetail

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Ok, it seems like enough support the 7.62x39 being an accurate cartridge. The innacuracy claims must have been due to crappy ammo. My own prejudice against this cartridge is due in large part to a few Russian semi-auto rifles chambered for it which shot such horrible patterns that I was damn near as accurate with a handgun at 50 yards.

However, it is extremely cheap to shoot (factory) and reload, and there are a plethora of .30 caliber bullets available. No one has really said much about the magazine issue though. From what I've heard some say it's because of the extreme taper of the cartridge compared to the straight mag well, others say crappy mags, or that mags will only work with less than 10 rounds in them. Also, is bolt breakage an issue (remember, high volume shooting!), or was that another carried over myth from early Colt rifles?

The .25 WSSM, I'm sure, offers the best hunting performance. However, I also (and primarily) want to shoot this rifle for fun. A lot. Would components wear out significantly faster with this caliber?

Zak, can you give more details about the deer you shot with the 110 gr. bullet? What cartridge was it fired from, barrel length, distance, animal weight, etc.

I don't know why .458 SOCOM is the only choice in Indiana, but I'm not really looking for a big bore rebated-rim thumper.

6.8 seems the obvious choice for a short barrel (which is why it was designed in the first place, IIRC). But since I don't mind a longer rifle, would I be better served by the 6.5's wider range of bullet weights?
 
Accuracy/6.8

John Wayne,
I'm getting a 6.8 ready for an upcoming hog hunt, and general deer season locally. Yesterday, working up loads and testing I shoot a couple of sub MOA 3 shot groups with 110 gr Barnes TTSX's moving just under 2600 fps out of a 18" barreled AR. I think I can get a bit more velocity as there were NO pressure signs at that speed.

I also shot a .876" 3 shot group at 200 yards with the same rifle loaded with a 130 sierra pro hunter @ 2375 fps.

The 6.8 can provide all the accuracy you want. There are 6 ammunition makers producing ammo for it, and most major AR makers are chambering carbines for it....this round will have staying power.
 
"Despite going the AR route, I don't want a tactical-whiz-bang ninja rifle. I am looking at 20-24" bbl, fixed stock, full handguard with no rails." For accuracy purposes, at least look at a tube. Just because it floats the barrel doesn't mean a plethora of IR/NV/1000lumen tac lights need to be hanging off it.

Grendel ammo is definitely suited to the 18-20" barrel crowd. More 6.8 ammo is available now, as I can go to basically any store in town and pickup Hornady or SSA for better less $ than I can get Alexander 6.5G ammo. I'm rebarreling my LMT 5.56 gun with a 6.8 stainless from either Bison or White Oak because simply of the fact that 6.8 is more available. I've got ballistics charts that compare 6.5 and 6.8, and anything up to 300m they both have the same trajectory as a 5.56, and after that the grendel and 6.8 have a flatter shot. Beyond 700m is where grendel stays flatter, and is still supersonic at 1000. I won't be doing any kind of shooting with my grendel at 1000yd because I don't want to field-dress a deer for a miles+ worth of walking.....and I'd probably miss horribly. My 6.8 might replace my Grendel as a deer gun, but the 6.8 is primarily home defense. The grendel is heavy and more suited for bench/deer, but that may change after my 6.8 is done :)
 
Ok, bought a Stag Arms 5.56 marked lower. Buying other components is still a ways off, but I've been looking through Shotgun News and considering my options.

I've heard good things about Del-Ton, though they only offer 7.62x39 and 5.56.

Model One Sales was the only major name I saw that offered 6.8, and these uppers were considerably higher than comparable 5.56 and 7.62 uppers. If I'm going to spend the extra for the 6.8 upper, might as well go with a nicer brand.

What's a good mid-range manufacturer that sells upper kits (complete upper, headspaced bolt, lower parts kit and stock) and offers a reasonable amount of options? A 18-20" fluted mid-weight flat top upper with rifle sight radius and free float tube sounds ideal to me.
 
No love for 300 whisper?! The round in which is shotgun slug speed with 17 hmr accuracy who wouldnt love that? ;)
 
No one has really said much about the magazine issue though. From what I've heard some say it's because of the extreme taper of the cartridge compared to the straight mag well, others say crappy mags, or that mags will only work with less than 10 rounds in them.
Click to expand...

The only mags that work well in my 7.62x39 AR are the frankenmags (AK mags welded to AR mags) made by USA.
 
a 223 or 5.56x45 will kill a deer so Wat ,it will also kill a cow so wats your point, Ive seen a cow shot with a 223 and it didn't go no further then his paster
would let him ;)
 
C'mon, krochus- we know that 7.62x39 is utter useless beyond 140 meters, you can't fool us! :D

(Nice shooting, btw- what kind of 100-yrd groups do you usually get with the NBTs? And what kind of penetration/expansion did you get at that distance?)

John
 
J so far my 7.62x39 has just never been a barnstormer in the accuracy dpt, but with this bullet it's been a reliable 1 to 2 moa performer

as to penareation, I didn't note an exit wound, although it's possible I missed it. But either way the lungs and part of the heart were trashed into a gooey mass.
 
Krochus makes it hard to rule out the 7.62 Soviet in favor of the 6.8...nice AR build, and thanks for documenting it.

JShirley, I assume you are voting in favor of the 7.62x39?

Looked up a 6.8 thread on AR15 forums. Seems like they voted Ko-Tonics the best value, but a visit to their site brought up the following:

"We're gone. No more business. No more orders. Done. Web site will be closed in a few weeks."

Wow, and for a company with such rave reviews... Everything else I've found is either very low end (in price, not making assumptions about quality) like the Stag 6.8 uppers, coming in around $500, or others that top $1,000.
 
I'd go with 7.62x39mm, but my only AR is in 5.56mm, so I can't claim personal experience with that cartridge in the AR: though I have owned many ComBlock 7.62x39s.

I may get a chance to play with an upper in 7.62x25mm next weekend! Yeah, I'm skippy about it.
 
Looked up a 6.8 thread on AR15 forums. Seems like they voted Ko-Tonics the best value, but a visit to their site brought up the following:
Click to expand...
Bison is picking up the 'affordable 6.8SPC barrel' slack left by KoTonics/Cardinal's demise, and are by all accounts (including mine) doing a fine job.

I have dropped a bunch of deer and hog with 7.62x39 AR builds, and it's almost the only rifle that I used from 2002-2007. The biggest deer was only about 140lbs undressed, but the biggest hog was about 500lb. It took four shots to drop the hog (at contact distance) and none gave an exit wound, although the first shot stopped just under the off-side hide and almost exited.

attachment.php


The Sierra ProHunter .3105 125gr are stout and they will give an exit wound on almost anything short of a 500lb hog, but at longer ranges they may prove too stout and will not fully open. The Hornady 123gr SPs are more frangible and better suited to the small deer that I normally hunt or to shots taken at longer distances. I had problems using .308 pills in my Shaw barrel (I tried using some light Barnes in the 16" middie shown in the pic above and had short-stroking issues), but I've not gone back and tried in a while. (I laid in a substantial stock of .3105 pills a while back, and given that I now have a stockpile of .3105-.312: bullets I really don't need to search for alternate bullets..)

The Sierra PHs gave me solid MOA performance (H4198, Remington SP brass), and the Hornadys were just a tick away from that - both quite adequate for hunting use. I developed three loads, one for the light 123gr-125gr stuff, one for .311 150gr pills, and then one for the .312 174gr Hornady RN. I got about 2400fps for the light stuff out of the 16" tube, about 2250fps for the 150gr and about 1950fps for the 174gr. I use H322 for the 174gr and H4198 for everything else.

I moved from 7.62x39 to 6.8SPC predominantly because I wanted to be able to use my 'hunting' builds for social work if needed, and 3-4 years ago the availability of hi-cap 7.62x39 AR mags that actually worked was pretty small. C Products has somewhat rectified that with their latest 7.62x39 magazine effort, altho they are still not perfect nor cheap. I have been running C Products 6.8SPC magazines ($14/each) and they have been working without a single issue.

I just bought a bunch of the Silver State Nosler AccuBond 110gr fodder ('tactical' loads, supposedly rated for ~2650fps in a 16" tube) for my 6.8 and so far in range use it's been quite satisfying. I am getting MOAish groups at the 100 yard line from my range mule Bison/Shaw barrelled upper, and no overpressure signs. If I make it out deer hunting this fall, this is the load I'm fixing to use - I expect the AccuBond to perform well.
 
one for the .312 174gr Hornady RN
Click to expand...

Wow! Have you done any expansion/penetration testing? Sounds like quite a load...

Thanks for the feedback!
 
The 174gr load was worked up to be my brush hog load, when the 125gr ProHunters showed good expansion and excellent weight retention on the big pig but no exit wound. They are quite accurate but they have not been used in anger. According to Hornady, their working velocity is from 1800fps-2500fps so they should be useful inside of 100 yards in the 7.62x39 loads available. I was worried that their round nose would cause feed issues but that proved to be a non-issue.
 
John Wayne,

If you agree with the accepted minimum standard considered humane for deer hunting, (which is 1,000 ft lbs of muzzle energy) then at 300 yds both the 7.62X39 and the 6.8 SPC are inadequate, regardless of bullet weight.

I hope this helps in choosing your caliber.
 
HOUNDDAWG said:
John Wayne,

If you agree with the accepted minimum standard considered humane for deer hunting, (which is 1,000 ft lbs of muzzle energy) then at 300 yds both the 7.62X39 and the 6.8 SPC are inadequate, regardless of bullet weight.

I hope this helps in choosing your caliber.
Click to expand...

I want to go on record as saying that such requirments for deer are utter hogwash. Energy is just a meaningless number. Bullets of proper weight matched to the velocity kills, not some calculation
 
Heh - twenty years ago, the minimum standard for large game was bandied about as 800 ft/lbs. When did this mythical number jump to 1000ft/lbs?

Many many deer have been taken safely and humanely with handguns and all sorts of long guns that failed the '1000 ft/lb' test. Certainly, those that choose to hunt with bows have managed to do so despite the fact that their chosen tool does not meet the 1000 ft/lb standard (if there even is such a thing).

And frankly, anyone suggesting that the chamberings in question are inadequate need only do a little reading (some in this thread) to realize that their preconceived notions do not stand the test of reality.
 
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