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AR question

Discussion in 'Rifle Country' started by doubleh, Oct 27, 2019.

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  1. doubleh

    doubleh Member

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    Anyone use a latchless charging handle? I've recently set up mine with a low scope mount and the charging handle is not really user friendly in that setup. Is that a good solution? Also what about the ambi handles or switching to an extended latch? My setup is strictly for hunting and bench shooting, no running and gunning, so I am just interested in convenience.
     
  2. Varminterror

    Varminterror Member

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    Change/correct how you’re grabbing your CH and any handle will work for a cost of $free.99.

    All of my personal rifles run ambi charging handles with slightly oversized handles (which is to say I run ambi everything on my personal AR’s). Raptors and Geissele ACH’s. I don’t care for extended latches, as I find I snag them on absolutely everything, and they end up digging into my chest or back when slinging the rifle. Even the BCM/Vltor A44 Gunfighter is a bit too wide for my tastes (good latch though).
     
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  3. Demi-human

    Demi-human Member

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    I am fine with a single extended latch, via Gunfighter. I like the red ones from Strike Industries too. It's like the red warning tags on a fighter jet.:)

    A friend is adamant he must be able to use each side under his scope, and that ambidextrous handle to be fifty bucks. Thus, he continues to complain of a hard to reach handle, even though he has a very low round count so far.

    Right to Bear Arms often has these on sale. Great handles. Easy to operate benched. Not totally tactical, but still might stab your spine slung...:D

    What VT just said...:)

    https://www.righttobear.com/strike-red-ARCH-extended-latch-charging-handle-p/si-arch-el-red.htm

    I see there is an ambidextrous one from Radian right next to this for fifty or so.

    Time to annoy my buddy a little...:D
     
    Last edited: Oct 27, 2019
  4. mshootnit

    mshootnit Member

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    Your low scooe mount is the problem, if you've not noticed, you are likely tiltng your head just to see through. Sounds like you are also not using the proper forward offset which would uncover any handle for you to grab easily and would also bring the rifle closer in where it should be.
    A properly scoped AR sits the optic center at 1.4-1.5" above the rail and forward offset so that there is 3" of eye relief when the nose is near the charging handle.
     
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  5. Varminterror

    Varminterror Member

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    Not to derail - but I use red anodized Seekins ambidextrous Selector Switches (“safety levers”) for all of my loaner AR’s. I like being able to visually confirm, even from a distance, students have their rifles secured.

    I wouldn’t necessarily use a red charger just for visual signature, but I do have a red Strike charging handle on one of my red & black builds, just for the color accent.
     
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  6. taliv

    taliv Moderator Staff Member

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    extended latch will probably solve your problem

    it creates others in some situations
    1. people don't pull it straight back. the extended latch creates a little more leverage than you normally have and it's possible to bend one of the cheaper aluminum charging handles, this is also common when people use sort of a reverse knife hand to karate chop the ch to the rear
    2. the roll pin wasn't designed to handle the pressure that an extended latch can create through additional leverage
    3. the latch can become the weak point and break when you're "pogoing" the rifle attempting to remove a stuck case from the chamber.

    that resulted in a lot of 3rd party improvements that are stronger and meant to be muscled around.

    that said, it sounds like for bench work, a plain old extended latch is what you're looking for.
     
  7. Varminterror

    Varminterror Member

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    I’ve owned dozens of AR’s, absolutely never in my life, outside of Service Rifle 3 position shooting, have I been able to position an optic forward of my charging handle.

    I’ve never in my life, had any difficulty reaching my charging handle under optics, but not everyone lives with their nose pressed to the charger.
     
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  8. gotboostvr

    gotboostvr Member

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    I like the medium sized ones from BCM personally.
     
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  9. pblanc

    pblanc Member

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    For three position shooting I will generally mount the scope on my AR so that the rear end of the ocular lens is slightly forward of the rear end of the charging handle. This places my face in a close to the nose to charging handle position. This will invariably require the use of a one-piece cantilevered mount, and those designed for ARs seem to invariably be set up to place the optic center at least 1.4" to as much as 1.6" above the top of the Picatinny rail. In truth, I would often like to position the scope a little lower for a better cheek weld, but that is usually not an option unless one buys a very expensive cantilevered scope mount.

    For strictly off-hand and bench shooting however, especially the latter, a more rearward scope position is more comfortable for many. In this case the ocular extends well rearward of the charging handle. I do find that an ambidextrous charging handle with medium extended latch levers to be beneficial in those cases. I have used the medium-length levers from both Raptor and BCM and have been happy with both.
     
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  10. skeeterfogger

    skeeterfogger Member

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    Good grief. Only have to pull it back one time! Twice if hunting. Target shooting bolt stays back on last round. No need to recharge. Not like having to cock it like a single shot. If it's operating properly not much need at all. Maybe rarely for FTF or failure to pick up round. All very rare in good working order rifle.
     
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  11. taliv

    taliv Moderator Staff Member

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    https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/precision-ar-build.713477/page-2#post-9114166

    https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/custom-ar-pics-post-yours.721584/#post-9005429

    Not sure what you mean by “forward” but the first link shows a uso 1-8x that I put roughly even with the ch maybe a tad bit closer to the stock. The second link shows a vortex 1-6 razor and a swaro 1-6 Z6i that both needed to be nearly an inch closer to the muzzle than the ch

    All depends on eye relief
     
  12. Skylerbone

    Skylerbone Member

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    Some random examples, all of which use AR specific mounts where applicable. Stock and optic used have a connection in some cases and correct mounts make a difference.

    Basic 2-7x32 scope with SSALT cantilever mount, MOE stock, and milspec handle. Nose ~1/2” from charging handle.
    CDA86F39-26FB-405D-84CD-DC173DCA6AA9.jpeg

    Irons only, ACS stock, Phase 5 Ambi, normally nose to handle (stock expanded for storage in safe).
    5B100387-1796-4E95-B47D-8F791A9C1033.jpeg

    RDS in 30mm mount, RRA Operator stock, milspec handle, nose to handle.
    45E40EDA-E68A-4DD7-A76B-E7356A401916.jpeg

    RDS, lower 1/3, Strike Viper stock, Fortis Hammer, nose to handle.
    D3BB06E3-B67D-480B-98A7-777EC63FDCCD.jpeg

    RDS, SBA-3 brace, Strike Extended Ambi, 1-2 positions back from handle to avoid nose tap during firing.
    C0EDA4AD-F3FF-4B26-9370-C41C3710C3E4.jpeg
     
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  13. jdh

    jdh Member

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    Quoted to save me from having to type out the same answer. This is the correct answer.
     
  14. Demi-human

    Demi-human Member

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    States “You don’t need to a fancy handle.”

    Then states all the reasons to need an operable handle. Such as...

    Or is it just me?:confused:
     
  15. jdh

    jdh Member

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    The nose to the charging handle is taught for a very important reason. It gives a locating point for consistant mounting of the firearm. It puts your head in the same place on the stock every time.

    Even on my 24" heavy barreled varmint upper with the 4 to 24 power scope the scope is mounted forward enough for the nose to charging handle hold with enough eye relief at any power setting. I started with the Burris P.E.P.R and still use it or one of the similar mounts.
     
  16. Varminterror

    Varminterror Member

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    Eye relief, position, and shooter ergonomics.

    I assumed “forward” to mean the expectation defined by @mnshootnit’s statements about nose to CH and 3” eye relief. For most folks, that would put the end of a scope an inch or so forward of the CH - which isn’t possible for me with the rifle properly shouldered.

    I’ve had lots of folks call me asking about new stocks and optics for their rifles, because they set their rifles up in that manner. But once they started shooting, they end up complaining the rest of their life about how poorly the stock fits, or neck pain from straining to reach forward to the eye box, or end up shooting with a carbine stock telescoped in, cramping their LOP into a less natural position. Sliding the optic mount back a few slots usually fixes the issue - they weren’t setting the optic to fit their body structure.

    Personally, I don’t have nearly enough nose or neck to crane forward to touch the charging handle. All of my scopes end up somewhere between ~1/4-1/2” forward or rearward of the rear of the charging handle. I typically run 1 detent collapsed from fully open in carbine stocks, which often puts me aligned or slightly forward of even, on fixed rifle stocks, my scope is usually 1/2” behind the end of the charging handle.
     
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  17. doubleh

    doubleh Member

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    Gee, thanks for all the instructions on how to "properly" set up my rifle. I don't really care about what the AR shooting community considers proper. I set it up to work like I want it to work. Don't give a flip about what's considered proper, just what suits me. Sorry I took time out of everyone's busy day.
     
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  18. js8588

    js8588 Member

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    I'll just leave this here

    FWIW I'm a big fan of the Geissele Super CHs. Both standard and the lower profile airborne iterations.
     
  19. Demi-human

    Demi-human Member

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    No worries! Any time.:thumbup:

    Let me know if you get and like the Latch-less, or if a bigger latch was the ticket. I like most of the Strike Industries gear, though some of it gets a little gamey...(but it does come in Hornady Red!)

    Have a good evening.:)
     
  20. jdh

    jdh Member

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    You're welcome.
     
  21. Skylerbone

    Skylerbone Member

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    A latchless handle, at least from Strike Industries, isn’t any wider than a milspec. If you choose something like a Raptor, considered the Gold Standard, that is slightly wider and extremely rugged, your chances of success increase. And, whether you care to accept friendly advice or not, technique and set-up do matter and will net real gains.

    I once again pulled these from the safe to compare apples on the same rifle and here’s what I found. More pics to follow.

    This set-up, scope is an old Nikon pulled from a muzzleloader for my wife to learn on (she previously shot irons only).
    C7C6943D-FC06-4BE8-B5E4-2768C553E753.jpeg

    An old Tasco dug out of a box sitting in medium height rings with an RRA AR specific scope mount behind it. Note the difference in height others were attempting to point out. This isn’t to criticize but inform that barring shooting from a mini cap stock that places your cheek on a bare receiver extension, you ought to consider a higher mount. That will in turn provide you some much needed real estate when operating the charging handle and cost roughly the same amount as a replacement CH.
    3B260892-F69D-484E-9C5D-7BD9C5210635.jpeg

    Ammo box for scale in the following pics. I aligned the left edge and my thumb to show width which my iPhone tends to distort. If you look at my thumb and how much of the cartridge pictured on the box is visible you’ll get a rough idea on wider vs same.

    Milspec.
    12283057-4628-4B37-A84A-3189D3309878.jpeg

    Strike. This will be the width of their “Latchless” model (the red portion).
    6F9560A2-D697-49F8-8F16-0B4AE3208C4E.jpeg

    Now measuring the full width including the extended latch.
    4CFF26B4-2683-4F18-9C08-08FB22F80873.jpeg
     
    Last edited: Oct 29, 2019
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  22. Skylerbone

    Skylerbone Member

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    More pics.

    Fortis Hammer.
    2EB7D8E3-B7C9-4B6F-9713-9C8769939076.jpeg

    Phase 5 Ambi.
    20F318BA-8EA3-40AB-BCEC-1E77793454B9.jpeg

    Phase 5 Ambi.
    630FD0A8-AB33-406E-94CE-9E67A9F740A4.jpeg

    Strike Extended.
    2E27EF65-15F5-4442-8A01-4F5C153BD8EE.jpeg

    Strike Extended.
    2C5E7D20-8B81-48BF-8A7D-5A3694776D79.jpeg

    Strike Extended.
    3EFA74B4-7287-44F9-B2A0-4588BB5F40F9.jpeg

    The Strike Latchless shares the same body as the Extended and won’t net you any width over a standard, only some potential purchase with the ribbing on the handle and a flat surface. That might make a smidgeon of difference, might not. I’d say go big or change mounts.
     
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  23. MTMilitiaman

    MTMilitiaman Member

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    I am right handed but left eye dominant, so I shoot left handed. I have a SIG Romeo 7 with a Juliet 4 magnifier on a FTS mount on my Colt 6960, and a Aero Precision M5 with a TA11J ACOG. In conjunction with the basic Magpul flip up sights, it gets the back slots on my rail pretty busy. I am a huge fan of the Radian Raptor charging handles. They improve the ergonomics of the rifle and make reaching charging handle around the ocular lens of optics much easier.
    u74sqoY.jpg
     
  24. jdh

    jdh Member

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    Okay in an effort to be helpful and address the op’s concern, to find out if a latchless charging handle will work for you take your current one, drift out the roll pin, remove the latch and spring, reinstall it, and take a trip to the range. If you don’t like the new latchless handle you can return it back to the original configuration.

    Better?
     
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  25. mshootnit

    mshootnit Member

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    You're just not trying hard enough.
    A little history is in order. Prior to the ham fisted public with their MTM box full of $19 rings taking to the platform, The M16/AR15 came with first the A1 stock length. This is a length of pull that fits average to small shooters and is also where "nose to the charging handle comes from. When the rifle is brought in this close it makes for a very quick handling rifle. The M16 was set up this way to enable quick use in field situations, prone shooting, close combat etc. The sight height was 1.5" which allows for cheek weld but also allows you to look through the sights without tilting your head sideways.
    Now fast forward to the modern sporting market. Average Joe used to shooting his ADL with a Tasco in "High" rings starts to buy AR15's. Naturally he tries to put his Tasco with high rings on the rifle. Thus 2 problems are created. 1st the scope sits too low. A sight height of only about 1.1" is obtained. This forces the shooter to turn his head sideways and mash it to the tube reducing accuracy potential. Remember: you move the rifle to your head, not your head down to the rifle.
    2nd, the scope rings do not allow the scope to be forward enough for eye relief, or access to the charging handle. By instead using a proper scope mount with forward offset both problems are solved. The other option, instead of moving the scope away from your face, is to move your face away from the scope. And this is accomplished by lengthening it with a longer stock or run the tube fully extended. What is less than ideal with this approach is that you are taking what is supposed to be a short handy platform and making it more unwieldy. Also if you are of short stature to begin with, no reason to move the whole rifle out farther from your body.
    That being said there are some really good scope mounts with proper height and forward offset. Some of my favorites are American Defense, and Wilson Combat.
     
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