ar vs ak

[jay43]

I'm sure this thread has been posted before, but here we go again. Whats better the ar platform or the ak platform? I know going to gun shops localy the ar's seem so much more refined and polished where as the aks seem crude and primative. I don't see the obsession with such a primitive weapon. please give me your suggestions, comments facts if you could

 

[KINGMAX]

Do you want a platform to build on?

Are you looking for a platform to build something from, or do you want somethig ruff and ready when you get it?

There is alot of aftermarket stuff out there, what do you want to build.

I prefer an AK. Mr RUFF & UGLY and ready right out of the box.

 

[MachIVshooter]

You have to decide what you want to do with it first. Both are great platforms, but have very different features with equally different attributes and detractors. Let us know, and then we can help you decide.

 

[skypirate7]

Do you want a RELIABLE WEAPON or an accurate range toy?

RELIABLE WEAPON: AK-47
Accurate range toy: AR-15

Flame on.

 

[jay43]

I have an M4 and love it, and I know there are a ton ok AK entusiests(spell?) on the sight and just wanted their opinion on why they like the AK. If i had a choice 9.9 times out of 10 I'd choose the ar it just seems like a better gun. just my 2 cents

 

[38snapcaps]

I have both. I hardly shoot the AR but can't get enough of the AK. Why?

The AK has a charm and attraction like a piston driven fighter plane or the crackling roar of a Harley-Davidson. The Ak's mechanics are fascinating, stone reliable, and easy to take care of. You just have the feeling if rioters were coming to your neighborhood the AK is the one you'd grab, it's got a mean look and a powerful punch. The thugs are going to recognize it right away and it's reputation will surely make an impression on them, maybe without you having to fire a shot!

Sure, my AR is sleek, refined, made with more precision, but I couldn't trust it with my life like I can the AK. The AK could be dragged around, gotten dirty, and left unlubed for months and months if our society has gotten so bad, and STILL be utterly dependable. I can't have that kind of confidence in my AR.

Let me ask you a question-really now, what car just excites you, makes your heart rate go up, makes you want to get in it and drive; a purring and smooth BMW or a rumbling ,snorting '69 Z/28 Camaro with open headers?

See what I mean?

 

[skypirate7]

Just to add some fuel to the fire:

5-Day High Risk Civilian Contractor Course:
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=265321
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=265599
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=265801
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=266018
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=266270

2-Day Carbine Course:
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=264868
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=265112



The guy "Nomad" who posted the threads and pics was in the class and detailed his experience day-by-day, including the weapons that failed.

The Civilian Contractor Course is hellishly intensive. Each person shoots approximately 5,000 rounds over 5 days, rain or shine. In this particular instance, it rained and became very muddy. When you've got around a dozen people in the class shooting a variety of weapons (AR-15's, AK-47's, Glocks, 1911's, XD's, etc) this makes for a pretty good test of reliability.

I paid particular attention to what he wrote about weapon failures and reliability... here's some quotes:

Civilian Contractor Course

DAY 2

"One AR broke, and one blew up today.

(Federal Factory ammo, extractor blew, blew off the dustcover and broke the buffer spring.)

The rest will be looked at by a gunsmith.

And my Glock 19 jammed AGAIN (Stovepipe, cleaned less than 1 hour before shooting it, went through 13 rounds before it jammed.)"

DAY 3

"2 AR's self destructed. (One had the bolt 'turn' in the upper reciever... No one knows how, it was using Radway green -Not ammo related)
I do not know what happened to the other AR.

The Ar's, 1911's, Glocks, and XD 45 all had feeding problems.
(It was that muddy... fix it and fight through.)

No AK Problems.

Before this I kinda liked the AK... I am liking it more and more."

DAY 4

"All of the AR's except one went down today (Shooting Radway, Federal and Remington.) James called Ron Barrett b/c we had more Ar's go down than he has ever seen, with no precevable good reason. Ron said: Get AK's.

Of 11 Students:
2 are Germans using rental guns
1 is a cop and has no choice
1 is a contractor
2 switched back to their Krinks
2 of us were already using Ak's
The other 3 say they are AK converts and will be getting them once this class is over. LOL

I would not own an XD... it has proved too unreliable over the last several days. It didn't work. All types of jams. Also the mag release would stick...

ALL AR's and Mags are quality.
-Ar's are NOT new, but now worn out ether.
Military issue, or at least Magpull followers... on the mags.

After the first day the AR's are cleaned 2X per day.
-At lunch and at the end of the day

I observed the cleanings and it was ALMOST Marine Corps standards (And THAT's tough if anyone knows)
-One of the AR shooters is talking to me right now, he just said ...WHEN my rifle goes down... I'm NOT gonna say the AR15's a good rifle...

-Sorry, that was too good to pass up.

All Rifles are striped, oiled, and then greased... the problem is NOT the cleaning.

I WILL say this, a couple of the rifles are James's rental guns (High round count) but the others are not... and they are going down just like the rental guns.

I do not have an answer, only observations.

Keep in mind, that you have 11 people shooting 5,000 rounds each in 5 days

55,000 rounds. That's more rounds than alot of people shoot in their lifetime.

The AR's have had all jams imaginable, and some that James had never seen. He called Ron Barrett, and Ron told him to tell the AR shooters to get AK's...

Broken bolts, 'Kaboomed' rifles, broken buffer springs, broken extractors, broken springs, stuck casings, doublefeeds, failure to feeds, stovepipes...

You name it.

Also on the 5.45x39 Krink: I'm sorry, I thought I had posted it.
There was one jam. The gun got so hot that it burned INTO the guys hand, and the Laquor coating on the case was burned OFF (I saw it)
That one stuck in the chamber.
(First jam in 7,000 rounds)"

DAY 5

"EVERYTHING fails... it's just that some gear fails less than others."

Carbine Course

"The AR's (Other than the ones that jamed all day) started droping out (Jaming alot) after lunch. the Ak's had 2 jams.

One was mine. (I am right handed but a left handed rifle shooter) and the bolt handle cought on my gear on one of the moving drills.
-The other was a FREAK.. jam with a round (SOMEHOW) getting BEHIND the bolt.
I've taken another class with the guy who had this happen... if anyone could jam an AK he could.

I noted an interesting thing... all the AR shoters cleaned their AR's at lunch LOL!
It cut down on their jams, but they still had alot!

I cleaned my M4 properly for the Gunsite carbine course, and the only problems were when it broke!

A Properly maintained M4 will do pretty well, but over thousand's of rounds it's just not going to do as well. IMHO/Observations."

The AR-15 reliability (or lack thereof) was surprising. I knew AR-15's have a reputation for choking in extreme conditions and I'm even a bit biased myself being an AK-47 owner, but I didn't think AR-15's would be THAT unreliable. They were jamming all the time despite rigorous cleaning. And a few of the AR-15's actually broke.

Total jams with all the AK's was a grand total of 3... amazing.

1) Operator's gear got caught on the charging handle (operator error)
2) Extremely hot barrel caused a lacquer-coated round to melt its coating and become glued in the chamber (ammo / failure to extract)
3) One freak jam where a spent casing somehow got behind the bolt (unknown / failure to eject?)

In fact, AK reliability was so good and AR reliability was so poor that all of the AR-15 guys said that they had become "AK converts."

 

[MMcfpd]

I have both, and I like'em both. For the 7.62 round, I appreciate the AK's utilitarian vivacity, although I find I actually put more 7.62 downrange with an SKS. Still, I do like the AK.

I haven't been inspired to get another, though, while I just took my 2nd AR to the range for the first time yesterday. It's a much more accurate, and pleasing to fire, weapon, IMHO. I've got two more, of other than 5.56 caliber, on the way.

Camaros are great to look at and listen to, but I drive a BMW.

 

[Guns R Tools]

AR= passenger car
AK=pick up truck

That's my take.

 

[Kalashnikov]

I prefer the AK. It fits me better, it's synonomus with reliability, and I prefer the caliber. The AR.... well I use one in the Corps and it has it's pluses I geuss. But I would taqke the AK over it any day of the week.

 

[Onmilo]

Since I like reliability and accuracy and power in a ruff-tuff no bones battle rifle I will suggest that if you find the same attributes admirable you should skip both the AK and AR platforms and instead look to the HK-91/PTR-91 rifles.
Oh yeah you can also find spare magazines for the G-3 style rifles for a lot less money than the AK or AR type rifles.
Only problem you may encounter with a .308/7.62X51 battle rifle right now is a reliable source of affordable ammunition.
Lay in a good supply if you decide on this path.

 

[BADUNAME13]

Well, I'm that Nomad... (See above)

IMHO:
If I want a rifle I can sit at the five hundred yard line and give you 80% or better on a man sized target on a clean rifle range.
AR15

If I want a rifle I can low crawl through mud with, abuse, and then still get 80% or better at the 200 yard line BUT IT WILL WORK!
AK


You need to decde what YOUR requirements are.

EDITED: Not ALL of the AR shooters are switching.

Also, it was CHRIS Barret, not Ron. I ment to edit.

 

[MachIVshooter]

Oh yeah you can also find spare magazines for the G-3 style rifles for a lot less money than the AK or AR type rifles.

G-3/CETME based platforms are more ammunition sensitive due to the fluted chamber. Steel cased or laquered stuff is a no-no. AR's will take the steel cased stuff, perhaps at the cost of an occasional broken extractor.

I'll give you the mag prices. I can buy 5 G-3 mags for $30; AR-10 mags are $40 each.

But if I had to choose between my Lancaster Polish Tantal sidefolder, My WASR-10, Ruger Mini-14 and my Armalite M-15 carbine, I'd take the Armalite. None of them have ever failed on me (excepting the mini with 40 round mags), but the M-15 is more accurate and far more ergonomic.

For a real battle rifle I'd take the AR-10 Carbine over the G-3 or PSL. The AR-10 is the lightest, most accurate and most reliable of the 3. The only issues I've had with the AR-10 have been using modified 30 round M1A mags. It eats everything from 110 grain V-max's to 180 grain BTSP, so long as I use the 20 round factory mags. The G-3 is finicky about ammo (doesn't like soft point bullets or shorter-than-max OAL cartridges) and fails to extract form time to time. The PSL hiccups about once every 70-80 rounds, regardless of ammo. I'll point out that the PSL is basically a stretched AK.

 

[mtbkski]

I started a similar thread on another forum site. Here is what I described that I was looking for. I was surprised by the responses I got.

Honestly Guys, I'm not trying to start a fight. I'm trying to decide what to buy just in case the AWB does go thru. I have a mni 14 right now. I would like to get a rifle that may not be available if the AWB. But I do have some requirements of this weapon. Here is what I am looking for. (You guys should have a field day with this one)

I'm looking for a rifle that will see very little use (See, I'm a realist). I don't plan on putting thousands of rounds thru it. But I want a rifle that will work when I need it too.

I'm not going to be going to any matches and competing with it. So, I'm not real concerned with 1 inch groups at 300 yards. It is a self defense weapon for those Rodney King kind of nights.

I want reliablity. I'm not a gunsmith. I don't want to have to tear it apart to clean it regularly. General maintinance is expected. If the SHTF and it goes a week or two between cleanings. I want it to work. And I want it to take a beating.

Want lots of goodies. I like building a weapon that feels good in my hands. If I'm relying on it for self defense. I want it to fit me wonderfully. Also want to get some parts to keep around just in case.

Ammo needs to be common and easy to find. Want a round that will get the job done. Whatever that may be.

And of course cost. The cheaper is better is a good thing. But I don't want to buy junk either. Oh, and if one model is better, could you be specific. I don't know much about either weapon. ( I carried a 60 in the CORPS)

When the dust settled. Every person on this site (except one) recommended that I get an AK. And I know most of them ar AR fans. So, I was impressed with the response. I have since gotten myself an AK. And I must say, I am impressed with how good it feels in my hands, how nicely if functions, and how mean and nasty it looks. (maybe bad guys will just go away and I won't have to use it, once they see it) I am a convert. I love my AK.

 

[RockyMtnTactical]

I like the AR15 the best, but the AK is a robust, venerable weapon.

 

[Glockfan.45]

Both have their pros and cons, although dont believe much of what you read on the net when it comes to the AR.

Pros

AR- Accurate, light weight, modular, low recoil, and generally reliable.

AK- Reliable, tough as nails, cheap ammo (if you go with 7.62x39 or 5.45x39).

Cons

AR- 5.56 is a marginally effective round when using ball ammo, surplus 5.56 is not as cheap as it once was, not quite as tough as the AK series.

AK- Accuracy varies widely from maker to maker, quality varies as well from top dollar Arsenal builds to hammer and file WASRs, poor ergonomics, weighs considerably more than most modern military pattern rifles.

I own both, but tend to favor the AR. It just depends what your looking for in a rifle. I want 1 MOA accuracy in a light, reliable, and user friendly package. I dont plan to use my rifle as a hammer or a shovel, nor do I shoot steel cased ammo, so I will stick to the AR as my primary rifle. If you want something that you can bury in your backyard, and run 1,000 rounds through without cleaning and lubrication then the AK may be for you. Just dont expect to hit much past 250-300 yards.

 

[twinhairdryers]

the obsession with such a primitive weapon is it fires every time you pull the trigge

An AK seems crude, but with this crudeness comes durability and sloppy tolerances that help greatly in reliability. You can drop it on concrete, drop it in mud, water, and sand and shoot a dozen 30 round mags through it without cleaning it. Try that with an AR. Also, I have magazines that are nearly 40 years old. Try to find AR mags that will last as long as the gun. Just pick one of each up and compare the weight and durability. You will never have to search for ammo that fires out of it either like you do with some AR's.

This comes at a price of accuracy. An AR is going to outshoot an AK any day.

 

[Chuck R.]

I like ARs, but here's my take on it.

Unfortunately, ARs are a lot like 1911's in that everybody that's anybody is making them. Just like 1911's, some folks buy primarily with cost in mind and end up with features like dremel'd non spec feed ramps, improperly staked gas keys, .223 Vs 5.56 chambers etc.

Sometimes, you really do get what you pay for.

Get a good one, keep it moderately clean, and learn how to lube it properly, and it's a great gun.

Chuck

 

[SpookyPistolero]

This exact discussion has been rehashed ad infinitum here and in other forums.

A quality example of either rifle will serve you well. Make your choice and practice 'till your arms fall off. After that, the rest of the diatribe won't matter.

 

[RockyMtnTactical]

5.56 is a marginally effective round when using ball ammo

I disagree, the 5.56 is actually more effective than the soviet 7.62x39.

For one, if you factor in fragmentation out to 100-200 yards (depending on many factors) and the fact that 5.56 can actually reach past 300 yards with some accuracy, it's FAR more effective than 7.62x39 in my book.

The only real advantage the 7.62x39 has over the 5.56 is penetration through certain cover/barriers.

 

[Glockfan.45]

I disagree, the 5.56 is actually more effective than the soviet 7.62x39.

For one, if you factor in fragmentation out to 100-200 yards (depending on many factors) and the fact that 5.56 can actually reach past 300 yards with some accuracy, it's FAR more effective than 7.62x39 in my book.

The only real advantage the 7.62x39 has over the 5.56 is penetration through certain cover/barriers.

Must......resist......urge......to.......engage...... in........effectiveness..... of 5.56...... ball.......debate. The.......horse.......can take..........no more.

 

[Still 2 Many Choices!?]

AR vs AK? Is it that time of the month already?!

Well since I own both, I'll take my AR 15 until either my cleaning supplies, or the ammo runs out, THEN I'll go back and dig up my AK !!

Don't know abou you, but for me it is pretty hard to comfortably carry any more than 15-20 mags plus other needed gear, so the only right answer is to have both, and stash one !!

Still 2 Many Choices!?

 

[R127]

Assuming you're talking about a 5.56 AR and a 7.62x39 AK tt all depends on where and how you'll be using it.

If you're using it for defensive shooting in an area with wide open spaces an AR in 5.56x45 will offer better long range accuracy. If you're in an area with a lot of brush, woods or cover the 7.62x39 AK will stay on target through heavier intermediate barriers, will punch through most brush and cover better than the 5.56x45.

Since both weapons are available in a broad range of calibers and both platforms are capable of great accuracy you may want to consider it from an angle of pure mechanical reliability and strength. In that case the AR loses out, badly.

If you want to increase consistency with your 7.62x39 AK you might consider handloading. I've seen guys who just tear down factory Russian ammo and reassemble the rounds with the best bullets and consistent powder charges and their groups go down from four to six inches @ 100 yards to 2 or 3 inches at the same distance. This is also be dependent on your AK, some shoot better than others due to better triggers, better barrels or both. It is very worthwhile to take this kind of care with a good quality 7.62x39 bullet like the 8m3.

When I have the funds set aside to replace my current 7.62x39 AK I will get a 6.5x39 AK built on a milled reciever and start handloading all my ammo. Then there will be no real argument for my owning an AR of any kind.

 

[Quintin Likely]

I ain't touching this one with a ten foot pole. Okay, maybe a little.

Me personally, I don't like AKs. They're crude. Ergonomically, they're all wrong for me - the length of pull is too short, the safety selector can't be manipulated without breaking my firing grip, rock'n lock magazine changes suck, the paddle release for the mag sucks, no last shot bolt hold open, the sights suck...

That said, they work. And keep on working. They'll go bang and put rounds downrange well enough to ruin someone's day or to keep you entertained during an afternoon at the range.

I don't own any AKs, and have no plans of owning any for my reasons above. The AR15 works for me, and this is the most important thing - get what works for you.

 

[R127]

Actually all those issues except the rock'nlock magazines can be resolved with off the shelf parts. Last round bolt hold open isn't an issue for me but there are two methods to achieve that I am aware of that are currently used in AK varients. Crude is relative to who made your AK.

Conversely I don't like the location of the charging handle on an AR and there's not much that can be done about that.