AR15 vs. 12 gauge shotgun for home defense

[Correia]

Zak, agreed.

I still wear plugs when I shoot suppressed, mostly because your head is right over the action. People standing ten feet away can carry on a normal conversation. I can shoot outdoors with out plugs, with no discomfort, but I wouldn't recommend it.

Indoors you want plugs, but having shot a .223 indoors, without hearing protection, the suppresor is a whole lot nicer. I once cranked off a magazine of .223 in a tiny concrete basement with no hearing protection, and it really was debilitating. (and stupid. One of the stupider things I've ever done. Yes, I know.)

 

[davek]

I have a multi-layered approach. I will use my 1911 to fight to my shotgun, then I'll use the shotgun to fight to my AR. I will then clear the house hollaring "clear" when ever I leave a room. The old plan also included a shoulder roll in the living room 'cause it's the only room with a large enough open space, but we just put hardwood floors in and think it would hurt too much now.

I dunno. Maybe a low crawl?

 

[Correia]

daveK, get some elbow pads. They are tactical, and you can still roll on hardwood.

 

[petr]

answer

shotgun hands down.

Has anyone posted this link? Wow, enlightening to say the least.

http://smith-wessonforum.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/550103904/m/5471026821/p/8

 

[trbon8r]

I'll stick with my 870P Max with Surefire light.

The fact that a shotgun is slow to reload is irrelevant in a home defense situation. We are talking about at most a pair of scumbags breaking in to rob the place. Seven rounds is plenty for that situation.

When you hear a noise and jump out of bed buck naked and half asleep in the middle of the night, are you going to throw on your web gear for your AR complete with spare magazines? I doubt it. You will use what you have in the gun and that's it.

 

[AndyC]

Funny - when I was a kid growing up in South Africa, I used to read US gun magazines and wonder why the writers seemed to be so concerned about a bullet penetrating a wall (our houses are made typically of a few layers of brick).

Of course, now that I'm here and living in an apartment (and having to put up with the elephants playing above me), I can understand the problem.

Shotgun for me.

 

[444]

"There is simply no way a semi-auto rifle can do as much damage in as little time as a semi-auto 12ga. "

Not to belabor this point, but what are you basing this on ?
Other similar posts have been made, not trying to single you out.


This has already been addressed but the idea that a suppressed AR15 using supersonic ammo is too loud but an 11.5" unsuppressed AR15 isn't is kind of a reach ?

 

[Marshall]

Heck, might as well weigh in too. Shotgun, hands down!

 

[chopinbloc]

444, i think correia meant he was going to attach a suppressor to the sbr.

The fact that a shotgun is slow to reload is irrelevant in a home defense situation. We are talking about at most a pair of scumbags breaking in to rob the place.

sorry, must have missed that line in the rules and regulations of home invasion. hope the crooks know they can only use two guys. hate to see 'em break the rules. 'course even two people can give you (singular, as in ONE PERSON) problems if they decide to break the bell curve and actually stick it out and fight.

how 'bout this one: they have it on good authority that you have alot of guns in your house and they decide that since they are badder than you and have gained experience by pistol whipping crack heads and stealing old ladies' medication, they think that they should have no problem knocking you off for your guns and they come in with the intention of shooting it out. further, maybe one has an old, beat up gun show ballistic vest and the other has a fresh, point blank level IIIA stolen from a cop.

oh, you're right - the above scenario is unlikely. is it impossible? if you're only concerned about what is likely, why keep ANY firearm nearby and readily accesible? it is unlikely that your home will be invaded.


i'd prefer to be prepared for everything that i can without putting myself in prison or going bankrupt.

 

[WeedWhacker]

"There is simply no way a semi-auto rifle can do as much damage in as little time as a semi-auto 12ga. "

Not to belabor this point, but what are you basing this on ?
Other similar posts have been made, not trying to single you out.

Each trigger pull of the semi-auto rifle gets you a .223-.308-ish ball of lead. Each trigger pull of the semi-auto shotgun gets you NINE-ish .30 cal. balls of lead (with 00 buck, I think).

I'm switching to a shotgun for home.

 

[lurkersince03]

How about a Tromix converted Saiga 12?

 

[chopinbloc]

though they definitely score cool points and i wouldn't feel too poorly armed with one, they are still rather big and bulky for home defense. they also suffer the magazine capacity issue that most every other shotgun suffers, though they don't take nearly as long to reload. now a registered short barreled shotgun version would really start to take up alot of ground on the rifle but i would still prefer the rifle for capacity, compactness (is that a word?), lightweight and fast, precise shots.

 

[444]

"Each trigger pull of the semi-auto rifle gets you a .223-.308-ish ball of lead. Each trigger pull of the semi-auto shotgun gets you NINE-ish .30 cal. balls of lead (with 00 buck, I think). "

The point I am trying to make here is: Have you ever actually seen what a gunshot wound from a rifle at close range looks like ?
Or are you basing this on something you read on the internet ?
Those .223-.308 balls of lead blow GREAT BIG HOLES through people at close range.

I was talking about this:
"To make it useful, you're gonna want to go subsonic, which means decreased velocity (22 lr velocities) and sketchy cycling. Versus...11.5" barrel with a nasty Noveske flash suppressor on it. It's significantly shorter, you can use full velocity ammo with it, and it'll cycle just fine."
A suppressor is only useful if you are using subsonic ammo, but an 11.5" barreled AR15 is Ok ? If you are having cycling problems when using a suppressor, you got major problems.

 

[Tsonda]

Get both

I actually keep an AR for the go to gun, but have an 870 close at hand and a 1911. Dang it sounds like I am expecting a 3 gun match to break out in the living room.

To the poster that stated the AR being semi auto and more likely to malfuntion. I have short stroked and 870 more than any of my AR have "jammed". My newest Bushy have had one problem that being a spring break in the bolt hold open. A couple of mags have not feed the last round after a break in period they are now good to go.

As for aiming, while I am far from the most experienced person on this board I have had more trouble with the shotgun during matches than any other weapon. I have shot to low on every steel, due to not aiming enough. I once watched a friend shoot the target in either shoulder before busting balloon in the center. No novice Ed has two tours in Iraq and has seen the elephant. After the run he stated "you do have to aim the shotgun and some always has to prove it.

Shotguns are fun don't get me wrong but in a serious social situation give me an AR or FAL.

Just my two pesos worth, and probably not worth that.

Regards,

James

 

[lurkersince03]

Okay, then how about this?

Or an even shorter barrel.

They're no bigger or bulkier than an AR. These are lightweight and compact and can also deliver fast, precise shots. Magazine capacity can be as many as 8-rounds. That's Mossberg 590 length-territory, without the hassle of round-by-round reloads, as well as with the added advantage of having quick, magazine-fed capability.

I think most firearm platforms have their own niche, and the AR-15 is very multi-versatile, but if you ask me, something like the 12-gauge Tromix conversions above are simply better at filling that CQB/short-range niche than an AR-15's .223/5.56. The only problem then, would be going through the legal processes to register and obtain the SBS [Short Barreled Shotgun(s)] in the first place.

By the way, chopinbloc, based on that scenario, all regard for overpenetration and ballistics go out the window. So do all concern for potential legal impacts, since if it were revealed in court/to a grand-jury that they were armed, armored, and determined, you could use a legally owned, fully automatic M2 .50 Cal turret bolted onto the carpet of your bedroom and still be justified (provided you didn't hit/kill an innocent bystander 5 miles away in another neighborhood...... okay, so that was a little over the top). Also, even someone getting hit with 12 gauge low recoil buckshot while wearing Level IIIA armor is going to feel it regardless. More importantly, once you get into the situational what-ifs concerning gun fighting, all bets are off. There are an innumerable amount of factors that go into play, making gun fights entirely impossible to predict. Just as unlikely as your scenario is, it is equally unlikely, however entirely possible, that a man with a .22LR S&W revolver could take out/disable three professional, armored and armed intruders (let's pretend they're crooks, not SWAT, please) with some well-placed face/head shots all with a single cylinder. Unlikely? Yeah. Impossible? Nope. But will it make people want to start arming themselves with .22LR's for HD? That, I'll bet, is unlikely.

 

[Correia]

Lurker, I've got a couple 8 and 12 inch Saiga conversions in stock right now. Actually they are much smaller than a 16" AR. The 8 inch gun is about the same size as an MP5.

 

[chopinbloc]

lurker, not only do i clearly see your side of this issue, you are starting to give me impure thoughts.

once you get into the situational what-ifs concerning gun fighting, all bets are off

i strongly agree and that's why i hesitated to post the idea. i merely meant to counter the idea that armored individuals NEVER break into people's houses and present the notion that i prefer to be prepared for the widest range of possibilities. of the tools i have at hand, the ar is what i will keep handy. that said, i have a new lust that i simply must fulfill at the expense of driving myself into poverty. DOH!

oh, and correia, any chance you could post some gun porn of those saiga conversions to give me something to drool over while i save my pennies?

 

[Soybomb]

Here's my take on it:
(disclaimer - I have a 870P with a surefire foreend and want an ar15 with a surefire)

• You're already preparing for the unexpected and unlikely. Its unlikely someone breaking into your home will have armor, but its unlikely someone will break into your home. Where do you draw the line?
• Pump are reliable, unless you short stroke it under pressure that you're not used to having. Unless you have an unusually sandy bedroom it seems unlikely that something will gum up the ar15's works.
• If I have to shoot multiple targets, I can do it faster with an ar15 than 870.
• Any round that is sufficient to go through a bad guy is going to go through plenty of drywall. If you're lucky the .223 will tumble and be far off the central mass height area you were aiming at. The buckshot won't. I wouldn't want to stand 2 rooms over from either, but if I had to it'd be from the .223.
• I can miss my target 29 times with the ar15 and still get a chance to hit before I have to reload. Only 6 chances with the 870. No one ever says how easy it is to hit moving targets in self defense or how they had too much ammo.

One of my friends was the victim of a home invasion by 3 armed men who kicked down his door and were on him very quickly. I feel more confident I could have 3 central mass shots places more quickly with an ar15 than my 870. And if they were wearing armor, more effective shots too. Thats unlikely and a worst case scenario, but if it can handle that, I trust it to handle less drastic scenarios with ease. Ymmv. Shotguns are fun and I won't be selling mine, but I think a ar15 carbine might just be the best indoor use weapon yet.

 

[ctdonath]

(Re: Kevlar) If the first load or two of 00 buck isnt doing anything the next one is going at their head.

With a rifle round, Kevlar likely won't be a problem. I'd rather not have to cycle thru 2-3 rounds for the same effect given time & urgency.

Why arent slugs an option? Have some slugs ready to go on a side saddle

As I said, the initial premise involved shot spread (the "you don't have to aim precisely" theory). If you have slugs on the side, then they're not instantly there. Handy, yes, but I want to put that threat down NOW without fumbling with anything more than inserting rounds 31-60.

IMO the first is the only time the rifle has an advantage

First shot is most important, as hopefully it will be the last.

 

[pcf]

Body Armor

It's certainly not a stretch of the imagination, to need to prepare for badguys that wear body soft armor. It's not a stretch for badguys to obtain hard armor (Level III and up).

What if your six rounds from your rifle doesn't do squat?

Defeating armor has a alot more to do with mindset, training, and tactics, than having a rifle. A rifle is better against soft armor, but hard armor more or less puts the rifle and shotgun on a level playing field.

If you're preparing to encounter the guy that is prepared to have an all out gunfight with you. I wouldn't stake my survival on the bad guy's lack of preparedness.

 

[ctdonath]

It's not a stretch for badguys to obtain hard armor (Level III and up). What if your six rounds from your rifle doesn't do squat?

Lowest level hard armor (IIRC, past midnight & I'm tired) involves ceramic plates which will stop the FIRST hit, but not subsequent ones. It also covers only a small body area, not general coverage.

If six rounds don't work, I'll still have 24 more in the mag. Maybe I'll just make 'em green-tip penetrator rounds.

Buckshot sure won't be helping in this case.

Part of this exercise is to determine what common/reasonable steps can be taken to cover "diminishing returns" scenarios. Choose a rifle or a shotgun - reasonable choice. Stick in a 30-round mag - ok. Load it with green-tip whatever-the-designation-is - not bizzare. Slap on a silencer - not unusual in most states.

Anything else to throw at the scenario?

I do realize there comes a point where the dragon wins. I accept that.

 

[TooTaxed]

Shotgun!..the AR15 over-penetrates, and the .224 bullet doesn't have the shock power of a single .30-cal #1 buckshot pellet. You are shooting at short range...20 or 30 foot max? A 12-ga #1 buck shell contains 16 ea .30 balls, which is superb for street or house-to-house fighting. (I prefer #1 buck loads to 00 buck, which only has nine balls and spreads more at distance.) One shot will blanket an entire door or window across the street and is the practical equivalent of an entire clip from a submachinegun. One shot from a shotgun will definitely take out your perpetrator...not so with an AR-15.

 

[444]

 

[Yeager]

Your all missing the fact that one cannot be a real man without a shotgun!

 

[Ranger J]

My old Mossberg 12g 500 with the old cylinder bore smooth bore, short ‘deer’ barrel on it, loaded with a ‘light’ load of birdshot. I think with the plug out the gun will hold 7 or 8 shots. I can’t imagine anyone still being around if I had to empty the gun. Modern shells loaded with birdshot are devastating at close range. I once removed an ‘illegal’ deer stand with a 20g loaded with birdshot and it was blowing great hunks off 2x4s. The shot cup itself will do a lot of damage at close range. Sorry to say that the birdshot will probably damage your paneling or drywall just as much as buckshot at the range you would probably shoot a BG.
RJ