AR vs shotgun in home defense discrepancy

[Theohazard]

I think a 12 gauge pump with bird shot is pretty hard to beat especially if you have neighbors.

Bird shot is a poor choice for home defense. It's meant for birds, not humans. In human-sized targets, your penetration won't be reliable. Whereas a defensive .223 load like Hornady 62 gr. TAP will fragment in drywall and limit collateral damage but will also provide much more reliable penetration in the human body than birdshot.

The myth that a shotgun won't over-penetrate needs to die. The truth is that a shotgun with proper defensive ammo (#4 to 00 buckshot) will penetrate like crazy though most building materials. If you're looking to minimize penetration through interior walls, an AR-15 is a much better choice than a shotgun.

A shotgun is just made to naturally point without having to really look at the sights.

There is nothing inherent about a shotgun that makes it easier to point shoot than a rifle, it simply comes down to the shooter's familiarity with his weapon. I find that I can point shoot my ARs far better than I can my shotguns, and that's simply because I'm more experienced with the AR platform.

 

[entropy]

it simply comes down to the shooter's familiarity with his weapon.

That's it right there. I am quite familiar with both; I prefer a shotgun, but would not have a problem with using an AR either-I just don't own one right now. For a short while, I did have the CAR-15 I built with a mag full of 55 gr. HP as an HD gun.

 

[someguy2800]

Having once eye witnessed a deer shot with a 12 guage with bird shot by an overzealous hunter I wholeheartedly disagree about the deadliness of birdshot at short range. It makes an incredible wound. Someone I knew in high school shot a doe at about 5 yards that they walked up on pheasant hunting. I did not see him shoot it but saw the deer afterwords. Entrance would was the size of a softball and turned everything to jelly.

I grew up shooting a shotgun so I have the muscle memory of just putting the comb in my cheek and pointing the end of the barrel at what I want to shoot. There is just something about the shape of a shotgun that makes this natural. After all it's meant to snap to your shoulder and hit birds out of the sky. I have not tried but I suspect I could hit just about anything I want in the dark. I could not do that with my AR or any of my handguns.

 

[someguy2800]

I don't want to start an internet argument but I was thinking about it some more. If you think about it like a bird hunter the front sight on a shotgun is basically the entire end of the barrel. I think the only thing that compares on a rifle would be a red dot but that still requires you look down a tube. As for the pattern at indoor ranges, the distance from my bedroom door across my living room is 30 feet, and another 15 to the front door. With the grouse choke that is normally in my shotgun (improved cylinder) the pattern is going to be a good 16 inches at 30 feet. If I don't get all of you with the first one it's going to at least give you a challenge shooting back with an arm and half your face full of 6 shot lol.

 

[z7]

I don't want to start an internet argument but I was thinking about it some more. If you think about it like a bird hunter the front sight on a shotgun is basically the entire end of the barrel. I think the only thing that compares on a rifle would be a red dot but that still requires you look down a tube. As for the pattern at indoor ranges, the distance from my bedroom door across my living room is 30 feet, and another 15 to the front door. With the grouse choke that is normally in my shotgun (improved cylinder) the pattern is going to be a good 16 inches at 30 feet. If I don't get all of you with the first one it's going to at least give you a challenge shooting back with an arm and half your face full of 6 shot lol.

I would encourage you to pick a heavier load if you choose to use a shotgun. I agree that birdshot at 5 feet or less is devastating, but at 30 feel you will most likely not get sufficient effect on target to stop the threat, #4 buckshot or similar might be a good option https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1...ge-2-3-4-reduced-recoil-4-buckshot-34-pellets

here is why I do not turn to a shotgun for HD.
pattern, you get little significant aid from a shotguns spread inside a house, most distances will be inside of 30 feet. using buckshot your pattern is not large enough to negate aiming.
round count is limited
recoil is high
follow up shots slow
semi auto shotguns can be finicky with ammo
pump shotguns can be short pumped or improperly operated when the operator is under intense stress
they are not as fun to practice with and therefore most users will not be as familiar as they will be with an AR

If I were to use a shotgun for HD, I would get an 18' barrel and maximize the number of rounds I can have in the magazine. I would still keep the shotgun condition 3, empty chamber with rds in a magazine. there should be no difference in how you store your long gun based on the gun itself, I understand storage location and other safety concerns dictate how you store you long gun vs hand gun, but #1, do not store a weapon in a manner that the wrong people might get hurt. that is unacceptable. if you can keep a condition 1 handgun on the nightstand, outstanding. I used to until I had toddlers running around.

 

[Doc7]

I think this thread has gotten off topic. I thought it was humorous that generally in this forum and others, people store shotguns with rounds chambered and ARs without rounds chambered. Not seeking to compare the two as HD weapons.

 

[Jackal]

A few nights ago, I heard a coyote just outside. I grabbed my AR that was stored unchambered. In the dark, I charged the rifle, pressed on the FA to ensure it was chambered and stepped out on the deck. Turned my light on, I lined up on the coyote, squeezed the trigger and heard "click". Coyote ran off into the woods laughing at me before I even had time to charge the rifle again. What happened? Charging the rifle, in the dark, under stress and urgency, I hadnt quite pulled the charging handle fully rearward, short stroking it. The click I'd heard was an empty chamber. Was it my mistake? Yes. Could it have been solved by simply storing the weapon chambered? Yes. So, my point is, leaving a weapon charged and ready can prevent mistakes under stress. I'm lucky it was a coyote and not a home intruder. Lessons learned.

 

[MTMilitiaman]

Having once eye witnessed a deer shot with a 12 guage with bird shot by an overzealous hunter I wholeheartedly disagree about the deadliness of birdshot at short range. It makes an incredible wound. Someone I knew in high school shot a doe at about 5 yards that they walked up on pheasant hunting. I did not see him shoot it but saw the deer afterwords. Entrance would was the size of a softball and turned everything to jelly.

I grew up shooting a shotgun so I have the muscle memory of just putting the comb in my cheek and pointing the end of the barrel at what I want to shoot. There is just something about the shape of a shotgun that makes this natural. After all it's meant to snap to your shoulder and hit birds out of the sky. I have not tried but I suspect I could hit just about anything I want in the dark. I could not do that with my AR or any of my handguns.

I spent most of my childhood bombing around my grandpa's property with my brother. It was pretty common for us to walk the railroad tracks adjacent the property and shoot ground squirrels off the berms. This is not like traditional ground squirrel hunting where you're posted up over a field with a scoped rifle. Shots were typically within 30 feet and happened either on the move with the varmint trying to cross the tracks or very fast presentations through small lanes in the brush trying to get them in the entrance to their holes. My brother has a Marlin bolt action .22 with a 4x scope that he used for occasional precision shots while I typically carried a Remington 870 12 gauge with a 26 inch barrel, fiber optic front bead, and an extra full turkey choke. I've shot hundreds of varmints with that rig but eventually abandoned birdshot for even ground squirrels because I saw tightly centered patterns of #6 shot fail to stop a 1 pound ground squirrel inside 30 feet from the muzzle with an extra full choke on more occasions than I can count. I went with 3" magnum goose rounds for a little while. These were obviously much more expensive and less pleasant to shoot, so I eventually dropped the shotgun as a small game instrument altogether and set up my own .22 rimfire. A single .22 rimfire round was much more effective on ground squirrels than birdshot.

Birdshot is an inconsistent and anemic performer for home defense.

 

[Corpral_Agarn]

just working the action of an AR is ear ringing, I agree

Wut?

Dude, grease that bolt a little.

Must be sarcasm... right?

 

[Theohazard]

Wut?

Dude, grease that bolt a little.

Must be sarcasm... right?

No, I don't think he was being sarcastic. I've also noticed a slight, brief ringing in my ears when the actions of certain firearms are worked near my head. The bolt slamming home on an empty AR is rather loud, especially if it's in a quiet room and it's near your ear. Now, if a round is going into the chamber, that cushions the bolt and makes it a little quieter, but not by much.

I read somewhere that the action alone on a Sterling submachine gun is 115 dB. That's loud. An AR's bolt probably isn't quite as loud due to the different design, but it's still definitely well above 100 dB, considering the firing pin noise alone on a Remington 700 is around 105 dB. For comparison, a jackhammer is in the 100 - 115 dB range.

 

[Corpral_Agarn]

No, I don't think he was being sarcastic. I've also noticed a slight, brief ringing in my ears when the actions of certain firearms are worked near my head. The bolt slamming home on an empty AR is rather loud, especially if it's in a quiet room and it's near your ear. Now, if a round is going into the chamber, that cushions the bolt and makes it a little quieter, but not by much.

I read somewhere that the action alone on a Sterling submachine gun is 115 dB. That's loud. An AR's bolt probably isn't quite as loud due to the different design, but it's still definitely well above 100 dB, considering the firing pin noise alone on a Remington 700 is around 105 dB. For comparison, a jackhammer is in the 100 - 115 dB range.

Huh.

I never noticed mine being that loud. I certainly don't remember "ear ringing" loud when cleaning or function check without earpro.

Course, I don't put the action against my ear when I release the bolt. And, if I am shooting, i am wearing earpro...

I guess... Learn something new everyday?

 

[Browning]

Our long guns fall into this category (chambers kept empty and the safety off where you need to chamber a rd to get it into action) for one reason : children.

Kids aren't allowed in our bedroom for this reason. However picking up an AR or a shotgun and knowing how to rack the action and then pulling the trigger is probably a bit beyond them. They don't know how to rack it unless it's a bolt action .22LR.

On the other hand flipping off a safety and pulling the trigger is something that they could accomplish.

We've also trained them to not ever pick up a gun to the point where our six year old goes and tells my wife even if I'm in the bedroom with the gun and putting it into a case getting ready to go shooting or hunting.

The pistols on the other hand have a rd in the chamber because they're carried. If I'm awake I have a gun on me. Yes, that's right. Even lounging on the couch right now I have a gun in my pocket.

The reason behind that is if I go outside to take out the trash or if I'm in a different part of the house far away from the bedroom I don't want to have to run back to the bedroom to go get it.

At any rate that's the reason behind why we do it. While we have guns just in case of attack, a burglary or home invasion we still recognize that incidents involving children are more likely to happen. So we take steps to prevent it.

 

[Theohazard]

I never noticed mine being that loud. I certainly don't remember "ear ringing" loud when cleaning or function check without earpro.

I suppose "ear ringing" means different things to different people. In this case, I'm referring to the slight fuzziness you briefly get in your hearing when you experience loud (but not deafening) noises. I'm not referring to the prolonged ringing sensation combined with noticeable temporary hearing loss you get with extremely loud noises.

 

[mjsdwash]

Wut?

Dude, grease that bolt a little.

Must be sarcasm... right?

taking a locked bolt, and dropping it from the bolt release without a mag is very loud. Not sure how loud, but loud enough to cause ringing in your ears. Grease wont help that much. Dropping the bolt on a loaded magazine is nowhere near that loud, but I think he was talking about the noise of the bolt on an empty chamber. Its just AR's, never seen any other quite like it.

 

[mjsdwash]

the ringing Im talking about is the slight ring you hear for a few seconds, after hearing a loud noise, that generally means hearing loss. Its a very quiet ring, so easy to miss over background noise. I get frequent test, and show consistently normal in most ranges, im certainly not overly sensitive to the pitch.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

I think a 12 gauge pump with bird shot is pretty hard to beat especially if you have neighbors. A shotgun is just made to naturally point without having to really look at the sights.

And there is the key -- you can point shoot a good shotgun, even in the dark. But I would NOT go with birdshot -- not after some tests I made with it. Use Number 4 buck for a good compromise between terminal effect and reduced penetration of walls.

 

[LoonWulf]

My 2 year old daughter will happily pull any trigger she can get her fingers on, so none of my guns are ever left loaded, or even with load mags in them. She can also open and close the actions of my bolt guns. She figured this out after watching me do it, and liking the sound it made, never underestimate how quickly a kid can figgure something out if it interest them. She also learned to use a broom handle to poke the light switches on and off, so it wouldnt be a stretch to see her using a lever to make a heavy trigger go off.

If my ars serving defensive duty its left locked open and safety off. If im using a shotgun, it will be hammer down on an empty chamber safety off.
My XD45 is the only gun that has a loaded mag and thats at night only, in the morning i put it back on top of the living room gun cabinet and the mag gets set down next to it.

I also sleep in the living room and we have 3 decent sized dogs that have line of sight on the whole of our property. all the neighbors have loose dogs and fences. It would be very unlikely someone would manage to sneak up to our house.

 

[Robert]

Sigh. Nope. We are done with this round of shotgun v AR.