AR15 vs. 12 gauge shotgun for home defense

Status
Not open for further replies.
7 or 9 semi-automatic shots from a sleek and trim shotgun is tough to beat for home defense. The ability to shoot buck, bird shot, slugs or a combination of them is a great benefit. I like the Saiga but I don't like the bulk associated with it as the one has in the previously posted pic. If we could have full auto and the ability to shoot short bursts, an AR type weapon would be nice. I would still be apprehensive though because of over penetration. I don't want a rifle bullet exiting my home and entering my neighbors home.


fn_sg_selfloading.gif



fn_sg_slpmk1.gif
 
Just so we can get somewhere...

I'll change my answer to the AR-15 with the,"Key to the City", option hanging underneath...Using a shortened 870, and some of those really short(and cool), shotgun shells I will have 60 rounds for the AR-15(two coupled 30 round mags), and 6 for the shottie:evil: ! Best of both worlds:neener: ...
Now I just gotta go SBR my AR15, and buy an SBS 870; then bring on the,"Goblins":uhoh: :scrutiny: !

Really guys, either firearm(or a pair of scissors) will do the job if you will prepare enough, but some internet disscusions are a good stress relief. Sorta like:banghead:!

Still 2 Many Choices!?
 
JHP?

I am not sure if this has been brought up yet...I only read til page 5.

Wouldn't .223 JHP solve the over penetration problem?

I would also think a 9mm upper for your AR-15 would be a great HD weapon. Think about...9mm JHP output great energy and with sten mags you can load up to 32 rounds.

I may be wrong about these things but I would think these would work well and solve many problems.

Also I appologize for rezzing a dead post on my first post. I thought it was worth it.
 
aim for the goodies...

IMHO, using an AR as a homedefense weapon is irresponsible unless you live alone in the middle of the woods. Overpenetration is a major concern, as well as the fact that at close range (not point-blank) an AR will poke holes in a BG who may still be able to get to you before he bleeds to death.

Personally I use a Mossberg 500 12 gauge and aim for the pelvis. At close range it could take off their legs and at longer ranges it only takes one pellet hitting the pelvic bone to stop them from coming at you.

Besides, aiming for the goodies will stop the BG from reproducing and therefore make the world a safer place for future generations.:D
 
Well .223 JHPs don't just "poke holes."

Besides I would never aim for their jewels. If someone entered my house with my harm in mind, I wouldn't let them live if I had the choice.
 
Overpenetration is a major concern
Click to expand...
Those who actually do real-world comparisons find that it isn't. Once a wall is hit, .223 loses velocity fast compared to other options.

As for "poking holes", that the military primarily uses 'em and SWAT is switching to them is indicative that .223 does more than "poke holes".
 
I personally use a Mossy 500 persuader with a flashlight.

I wouldn't hesitate using my AR with a flashlight either. I chose the shotgun because I have a 5 year old daughter and overpenetration is a concern.

Notice the word "flashlight" in both gun descriptions. If you use a light it takes alot of the aiming out of the equation.

I took a pic of each with the light on for you. Notice that the shotgun light is within inches of where the bead is aimed at. This would make it easy to fire from an awkward position. The AR flashlight is "dead on" to where the sights line up and it could also be fired awkwardly if needed.

I think these flashlights are almost as important as the guns themselves. Make sure and get pressure switches for easy on/off operation. I wouldn't want to be "quietly" walking through the house with a noticeable flashlight beaming through the place. :eek:
 

Attachments

  • DSC01865.JPG
    DSC01865.JPG
    8.8 KB · Views: 75
  • DSC01867.JPG
    DSC01867.JPG
    16.4 KB · Views: 77
its probably been comented on somewhere in this thread, but after reading a few pages i just had to add my own 2 cents.

1. shotguns still need to be aimed
2. most people on the intarweb seem to live in hollywoodland regarding shotgun damage to the human body and........
3. the amount of pattern spread you get off a cylinder bore HD gun inside a dwelling. unless you live in a damn castle/mansion, its a whole hell of alot smaller that most people make it seem
4. HD without some kind of light setup, be it on the weapon or in the dwelling is physically and legally dangerous.
5. the body armored invader vs shotgun scenario is a non issue. one hit at HD ranges will put them down for a follow up. unless you mistook the intruder for a pheasant, and selected your load to reflect such. also if you cant execute a headshot at these ranges....you should probably hit the range.
6. shotguns vs zombies are overkill. read the guide people :rolleyes:
 
You know, I only made to mostway through the 2nd page, but let me address something.

I hear this utter malarky mantra all the time: There's nothing more devastating at close range than buckshot!

Baloney. I hunted with a gentleman my father met from church years ago. Derrell was waiting for trial. For a murder-suicide.

Derrell didn't remember what had happened, having been loaded on prescription drugs and booze. He always claimed that his wife had shot herself, and then he had shot himself after her death. In the face. With a 12-gauge at contact distance. Loaded with buckshot.

Derrell was missing a big chunk of his face, like someone had used a hot ice cream scoop to just lop off about tangerine-sized section of his face and jaw.

He was very much alive.

I stopped using buckshot because I like the ability to shoot things at range- and I lost faith in the ability of buck to stop even game at reasonable ranges. (It does excell on armadillo at 4 meters.)

I am not saying a shotgun, especially loaded with slugs, is useless. Far from it. I do fervently believe a good carbine is FAR superior for close-range use against threats who may be shooting back.

As someone else suggested- get another barrel for that shotgun. It'll make a fine hunting arm- I like using my ghost-ring Mossy and slugs for stalking deer through thick woods.

Oh, yeah- at almost contact distance, you look over your rear sight on the M4 or similar AR platform. You swing the weapon up until your front sight covers the target, and squeeze the trigger. Twice. 'Cause no weapon or bullet is magic, and we believe in Murphy's first law. And you have no practical need, and little use, for automatic fire to defend yourself with a rifle. We don't use it even in the military, unless shooting a squad automatic (which only fires the 5.56mm, but is twice as heavy, and is used from the prone or a mount whenever possible) or larger weapon.

'Nuther addendum- I tested various rounds against Level II body armor. I wouldn't have wanted to be wearing that vest, but even slugs didn't penetrate. .223 did.

John
 
There are several ways to look at this. For those who like the shotgun and want it short within legal limits and can use it in small areas the double barrel backed up with a handgun can make sense. Since quick follow up shots can be made with the double compared to the other types of shotgun one can fire the 2 quick shots if needed and then transfer over to the sidearm. Carbines in rifle or pistol calibers can be used in tight courters more easily than most shotguns. Some jurisdictions ban handguns. So the carbine makes sense. Since one is liable for each shot fired one does not have to worry about as many stray projectiles with each pull of the trigger compared to shotguns. People may not be able to take the muzzle blast of the shotguns or rifle . Recoil for some could also be a detriment. Pistol cartridge carbines would then come into their own. For those who want the shotgun, it is your choice. For all who chose the weapon system that works best for them I will not criticise the choice. Common sense and research need to be done before one commits wholly to ones defense package. TV, movies, and video games are not real life. Have talked to a few people old and young who went with or are going to go with a choice of firearm on hearsay and what the game or movie showed them was "cool". Oh well. Darwin Award winners they will be. There was no plan what to do if the domicle was invaded rather than to blast away at the intruder.
 
(and by "research"- let me put words in your mouth- he means "go out and shoot stuff".) Get a few gallon milk jugs, fill them with water, and place a phone book after the last jug. Try your magic super round of choice, and then try "the other thing", whatever that is.

Having actually done this, I can tell you, for instance, that some .223 will expand/fragment violently, and penetrate less than 9mm!
 
5. the body armored invader vs shotgun scenario is a non issue. one hit at HD ranges will put them down for a follow up. unless you mistook the intruder for a pheasant, and selected your load to reflect such. also if you cant execute a headshot at these ranges....you should probably hit the range.
Click to expand...
You know I liked everything about your post except this. You point out some people's "hollywood" expectations of wounding but then go hollywood yourself with "the shotgun is so powerful they'll be knocked clean off their feet even wearing armor" kind of talk. Lets be honest, the person is going down if they decide to go down, the physics of the situation aren't going to make them do so though.
 
the body armored invader vs shotgun scenario is a non issue. one hit at HD ranges will put them down for a follow up. unless you mistook the intruder for a pheasant, and selected your load to reflect such. also if you cant execute a headshot at these ranges....you should probably hit the range.
Click to expand...

Body armor can stop slugs. The target's chest would probably be shattered, but nonetheless. I would say the best bet on ammo for the self home defense shotgun is 00 Buck.
 
6. shotguns vs zombies are overkill. read the guide people
Click to expand...
Yup, everyone knows zombies require headshots which isn't a shotgun's forte. :D

As for AR vs. Shotgun against people, I have both. I'll probably use the AR for a couple reasons.

(1) I'm a firm believer in using what you regularly shoot, which is the AR-15 and handguns for me. If I shot clays or skeet or hunted regularly, I'd probably go the other way. But I don't so I won't.

(2) I don't happen to have buckshot in the house for whatever stupid reason, just varing sizes of bird shot and some slugs. Despite what people say, birdshot can only be counted on to make a nasty surface wound. It might scare the guy off, but it probably won't permanently incapacitate him or penetrate to any vital organs. Slugs will overpenetrate far worse than any AR. 55 grain 5.56 milsurp (which I have hundreds of rounds of) is a much better choice for stopping people permanently than my current stock of shotgun ammo.

(3) The AR might not be as reliable as my mossberg, but neither has ever malfunctioned on me. I don't expect malfs to be an issue unless I start storing the AR in my cat's litterbox. I think I can keep my guns clean in my own home. Honestly, because of (1) I have more trouble with the pump shotgun because everything I shoot regularly is semi-auto.
 
in all likelyhood, a target wearing body armor will lose their footing following a close range fully absorbed shotgun blast because the armor acts as a kinetic focal point with almost no elasticity. in that kind of a situation, all that ft-lbs sillyness that people always quote for stopping power really does come into effect.

having said that, i didnt really mean knock down, rather stop whatever immediate action they were undertaking, thereby buying a few precious seconds for you to reevaluate the threat. knock some sense into them maybe.

having seen lightweight, slow moving less-than lethal impacts in action and the resulting trauma they cause, i am pretty sure that a full power load when denied penetration will produce at least equivalent results.

now i've seen hundreds of shotgun wounds, and i've shot thousands of rounds through my HD gun at the range, but i will admit that i have not actually shot, nor had any first hand accounts from people that have shot (with a shotgun) an individual in body armor, so i'm going off of physics here.

but from speaking to my LEO buddies , some of which have taken handgun rounds to the vest, it can stagger your footing pretty severely if you arent properly balanced. and then of course the "whole holy **** i've been shot" factor
 
"Derrell was missing a big chunk of his face, like someone had used a hot ice cream scoop to just lop off about tangerine-sized section of his face and jaw."
========================================================

John,

Not to appear argumentative, but...

Human critters are three dimensional, and vital areas are not everywhere in the corpus. It is necessary to know some basic anatomy in order to direct projectiles of any size/type/origin to vital areas. Peripheral hits are peripheral hits no matter what small arms projectile inflicts them. Would the results in Derrell's case have been different with any other projectile, given the trajectory at which said projectile was fired?

It's no secret that I favor shotguns and 00 buckshot for close range defensive use, because I have confidence in its ability to stop an assailant. I have seen the results of shotguns fired at humans at close range, and understand its limitations- and there are limitations, as with anything else. A miss with any small arm is still a miss, a peripheral hit is a peripheral hit. I have posted a forensics report from Australia on a couple of self- defense related threads here on THR as an object lesson in the efficacy of peripheral hits with shotguns- take a look at http://www.mja.com.au/public/issues/173_11_041200/herdson/herdson.html . Shotguns are not magic wands, any more than any other personal weapon- you have to hit vital areas to produce stops.

Shotguns aren't necessarily the best choice for every person and every situation, and I am not about to say they are. But they are my choice and I stand by it.

Regards,

lpl/nc
 
Hm. Interesting (if gruesome) link.

Lee, I do believe almost any 12 gauge slug would have had the penetration to blow through the face and take out CNS.

Now, I have no doubt that you- as many here probably- can fill your defensive needs with a shotgun. Hell, I think I can fulfill my likely defensive needs with a shotgun. I just think I can do even better with a carbine (and interestingly enough, I see the most advantage at what most people believe is the defensive shotgun's forte, very close-range use against multiple threats), except in certain, specialized situations, as I mentioned earlier.

Now, if someone has no carbine, and already owns a decent shotgun, then I suggest they test various loads from it into media, instead of accepting "common knowledge", know where their load of choice groups or patterns, practice and be happy. :)
---
some of those really short(and cool), shotgun shells
Click to expand...

If you're referencing Aguila minishells, my experience has been that they will malfunction (sometimes to the point of an actual jam- in other words, requiring tools to clear) when cycled through most shotguns. Even Aguila has this to say: We would like to state once more that minishells will not cycle flawlessly in regular pump action shotguns, no matter how well some customers are able to cycle them.
John
 
in all likelyhood, a target wearing body armor will lose their footing following a close range fully absorbed shotgun blast because the armor acts as a kinetic focal point with almost no elasticity. in that kind of a situation, all that ft-lbs sillyness that people always quote for stopping power really does come into effect.
Click to expand...
kinetic focal point? What does that even mean? ;) Seriously if anything body armor helps spread an impact over a wider area. That is the very basic way it functions to prevent penetration by a bullet. Thats why it lessens the damage from blunt force trauma (say making you safer if you hit the steering column in a car accident) as well. I just don't see the "losing footing" thing. If there isn't enough energy to knock the shooter down, there isn't energy to knock the receipient down. I can't think of the number of hunters I know who have put a slug through a deer and had the deer keep running for quite a distance even with decent shot placement. Your theory would suggest that the deer should topple over backwards like a cardboard cutout, especially since its getting a big hole put in it, not just an impact.
 
From a military stand point I would have to say the 12 gauge. When engaging the enemy using a shotgun with slugs or buckshot you shoot once then shoot again if needed.With an M16A2 you shoot two or three rounds then asess the situation and see if you need to shoot more.So that is why I say that.




one shot one kill
 
From a military stand point I would have to say the 12 gauge. When engaging the enemy using a shotgun with slugs or buckshot you shoot once then shoot again if needed.With an M16A2 you shoot two or three rounds then asess the situation and see if you need to shoot more.So that is why I say that.
Click to expand...

You're misunderstanding. The ONLY reason you might just fire one round as SOP from a shotgun, instead of the controlled pair we're taught to fire from a carbine, is limited ammunition capacity and increased recovery time, NOT increased effectiveness. Good private school courses often teach a "hammer" of two rounds from shotgun to threat.

John
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

L
  • Locked
5.56/.223 vs .357 Magnum Carbine?
2 3 4
Replies
94
Views
21K
Art Eatman
A
B
  • Locked
5.56/.223 for Home Defense?
2 3 4
Replies
79
Views
8K
Robert
Robert
P
  • Locked
20 gauge home defense shotgun?
2
Replies
35
Views
18K
Jeff F
J
B
  • Locked
AR15 home defense ammo
2 3
Replies
62
Views
5K
Shawn Dodson
Shawn Dodson
D
  • Locked
AR vs shotgun in home defense discrepancy
2 3
Replies
67
Views
4K
Robert
Robert
Back
Top