Are AR-15's really necessary?

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A .223 using good defensive ammo is LESS likely to overpenetrate than most pistol rounds. However, I am of the philosophy that you should assume every round you fire frim any defensive firearm is going to hit a few layers behind it, and I plan accordingly. It's not like you can ASSUME it won't. Some of your shots may miss, and aren't going to be stopped by the bad guy at all. Overpenetration is FAR down on my list of concers when choosing a cartridge.

I will never use a handgun when I have the oprion of using a long gun. My primary is the shotgun loaded with #4 buck. My backup, (and my wife's primary) is an M-1 carbine.

The anti-gunners have invented an arbitrary standard where they say 'weapons of war' have no place in the hands of civilians. They are entirely ignorant to the fact that throughout history, 'weapons of war' have been side by side with civilian arms, often exactly the same. They are trying to convince the public that there is a difference, just because arms have become more modern.

Here's the key thing to remember. They aren't after ARs. They aren't after handguns. They aren't after 'combat shotguns'. They aren't after hunting guns. They are after ALL guns. In dividing them into categories, they are trying to divide US into groups, and get us to go against each other, and be willing to throw each other under the bus, they don't have to take all of us on at once. If you admit that a certain kind of gun is just a hobby, and not NECESSARY, then you admitting that you would be willing to give it up.

Rights are not justified by need. Make THEM compromise. We don't compromise.
Good point. I would rather not compromise but I am preparing for the worst. Can you really not see the likelihood of another Assault Weapons ban? It's happened before...

never in this thread have I said I am willing to give them up, just that I am having a glass half empty attitude and preparing to have to give them up. I am always looking at the negative side of things because it would be foolish to think everything will always work out in your favor. I guess that's just cynical me.
 
Quite a few years ago, I didn't understand the term "slippery slope".

All it takes is watching the media following one of these horrific events and you can see it quite clearly.

As I understand things, the reaction against machine guns and sawed-off rifles/shotguns was similar, and resulted in the National Firearms Act of 1934.

Those were the weapons of "gangsters" and were not needed by honest men, so it was OK to make ownership of them very difficult / impossible for the time.

You will note that, though the "climate" of gun rights seems to be heading in a positive direction, there isn't much hope that the NFA will be repealed.

The reason why any class of firearm should not be restricted is that it encourages wrong-thinking, blaming the tool instead of the owner.

It isn't about need. It's about getting folks to quit thinking that banning the ownership of certain objects will improve anything and start thinking about getting criminals off the streets... (IMO, of course.)
 
"...but if circumstances should at any time oblige the government to form an army of any magnitude, that army can never be formidable to the liberties of the people, while there is a large body of citizens, little if at all inferior to them in discipline and use of arms, who stand ready to defend their rights..." Alexander Hamilton

There's several other quotes you can read / research. Also check out the SCOTUS decision in ~ '39 regarding short barreled shotguns, the 2A and NFA.

Here's another of my favorites:
"the ultimate authority ... resides in the people alone," James Madison
 
Earlier you said that you are preparing to make this concession. I guess I can't understand how someone could hold both positions.
yes, preparing. Not rolling over and giving up. I have a bad feeling that this Batman shooting is going to spark a serious threat to our rights to own AR's and I feel we might not make it through unscathed. IF that happens, and it is the law that I have to give up my AR, I will do it. What don't you understand about that? I ask again, when you say you are not going to make that concession, what does that mean, exactly? You're going to blatantly disregard the law and go out with a blaze?
 
Only if they don't have one of those scary bayonet lugs:rolleyes:

You don't really need a gun at all, right? You could just use a non-lethal weapon or call the police! The whole need/not need argument can be taken a long way towards gun grabbing. The 2nd Amendment is not about immediate need.
 
Quite a few years ago, I didn't understand the term "slippery slope".

All it takes is watching the media following one of these horrific events and you can see it quite clearly.

As I understand things, the reaction against machine guns and sawed-off rifles/shotguns was similar, and resulted in the National Firearms Act of 1934.

Those were the weapons of "gangsters" and were not needed by honest men, so it was OK to make ownership of them very difficult / impossible for the time.

You will note that, though the "climate" of gun rights seems to be heading in a positive direction, there isn't much hope that the NFA will be repealed.

The reason why any class of firearm should not be restricted is that it encourages wrong-thinking, blaming the tool instead of the owner.

It isn't about need. It's about getting folks to quit thinking that banning the ownership of certain objects will improve anything and start thinking about getting criminals off the streets... (IMO, of course.)
maybe the best post so far.
 
Why don't they want to ban my 1917 Enfield, by Model 97 shotguns, my Henry rifle, my model 94 rifle, etc. Some of these have capacity of greater than ten rounds. I could do at least as much damage with a '97, a peacemaker, and a Henry rifle in the same amount of time that the shooter did with his guns.
 
Many countries, present and through history have deemed that the only thing "necessary" is a yoke around your neck. The natural/historic life-cycle of nations is an interesting study.
 
No, I don't see another AWB anytime soon. To understand why, you have to remember the historical context of the last one. It passed by one vote, and it cost the other side of the aisle so dearly, they couldn't get a hearing on renewing it in 2004. (Most people agree, had it NOT had a sunset date, it wouldn't have passed at all.) We were not well organized back then. Most gun people were not internet people. We would rather be out shooting than wasting time online. We got a FAST wakeup call, and we have made SERIOUS changes to how we approach gun legislation.

Neither side of the presidential campaign wants to talk about guns at all. They will likely be FORCED to as a result of this most recent incident. They will keep it brief and not say anything new. The usual suspects (Feinstein, Lautenberg, McCarthy, Schumer, etc) will harumph and complain, but if they submit a bill at all, it won't make it out of committee. The reason for this is that WE are keeping up the pressure. GOA, NRA, and individuals keeping on our representatives to make sure they understand EXACTLY where we stand, and how we don't forgive or forget. I am fortunate to live in a place where my reps don't need much reminding, but others might need more work.
 
AR15s:

Smaller than a shotgun (in the right configuration)
Adjustable to fit the shooter
Offer faster follow up shots (due to lighter recoil)
Allow for fast target acquisition optics
Actually penetrate walls less than other options
Easier to handle and manipulate than other platforms
Lightweight in the event you need to hold the weapon for awhile
Offer high capacity in the event of several targets


I don't even own one, but why wouldn't it be a great HD platform?
 
Look, the thread title about "necessity" is good for getting people to come in here and give opinions which is what I wanted. The jist of what I am saying is that my personal situation would not encourage me to use an AR and that because of recent events, I am preparing to lose this right. I cannot be more clear in saying I have no intention of letting this happen and will take any legal measure available to do my part in not allowing any of my gun rights to be conceded. I didn't spend my hard earned money (over 25 grand on guns/ammo/accessories) because I want to give up my guns.

I am simply starting a discussion about the merits of an AR-15 as a defense rifle as it pertains to your situation and pointing out that we might not always have that right to choose an AR as our defense weapon.
 
Since the AWB I bet the number of AR's manufactured have increased well over 5 fold and the magazines probably 4 or 5 times that amount, add in all the other semi autos that are similar and a ban today becomes much more difficult than it was before.
The 34 NFA and the machine gun manufacturing ban were possible because few people owned them and others were ambivalent or flat didn't care because it didn't effect them.
Today I bet 10's of millions of Americans own AR type rifles and a few million of them have used the military version in service of their country so the uproar of new restrictions should be a strong buffer to the gun grabbers.
Americans have also come to know the lost freedom of carrying a gun for their own protection and that genie won't go back in the bottle easily. The report today is that gun sales in CO are up over 40% and classes are booked, the pendulum has finally swung the other way and we have drawn the line in the sand. The effort must continue and agreeing to concede when we know it won't stop a single crime or pacify the antis is just a bad idea.
 
.because of recent events, I am preparing to lose this right..
I hate to say this and don't mean to sound disrespectful, but just what kind of Sergeant were you or are you anyway?
A good Sergeant doesn't prepare to lose, they prepare to win and lead by example. I don't like your attitude.
 
I just faced this very question today in a lengthy debate with an anti-.

"Some guns are DEFENSIVE, some are OFFENSIVE. We should ban the offensive ones!"

My response:

"... there is NO difference between a gun designed for offense vs. defense. Multiple-assailants in home invasions are INCREASINGLY common. So is the prevalence of body armor in the hands of criminals, which renders most handguns ineffective (heads move fast, and are small targets to hit). Having a rifle at home for self defense is effective. Handguns, not so much.

Yes, I keep a loaded assault rifle next to my bed at night. Why? Because if I ever need to defend my home, I can't pick how many bad guys there are, or what they wear to protect themselves. I don't want to be caught under-prepared, in other words, if the life of my family members are at stake.

So, if you ban assault weapons (and the 50 round magazine my compact assault rifle next to the bed holds), you are effectively limiting me to using a handgun for self defense - for which there is a VERY easily obtained countermeasure. Body armor can be ordered, unrestricted, off the internet from police sites such as www.galls.com.

No, I'll keep my assault rifle for self defense, thank you very much. :)"
 
Or, does it simply mean you are going to implore your congressmen to vote against banning these guns? Because that's all I am prepared to do. I will do everything in my power to make sure that law doesn't get passed but if it does, I will hand them my gun, biitch and moan about it, and move on with my life. I will not move to another country nor will I make them take it from me forcefully.

You're talking about confiscation, not simply a prohibition on future sales. Confiscation is rather politically unsavorable. It involves ordering police and/or the military to go door to door searching places. It makes you look like a police state, because, well at that point you are acting like one.

To my understanding not even England took that approach. They already had a registry set up with 'firearms certificates' that had to be renewed every couple years, so they simply quit letting people renew them. They already had the owner's names and addresses on file, so they easily knew if people didn't bring their's in when their certificate expired.

We don't have a registry on Title I firearms. The anti-gunners can't simply close the registry like they did with the Hughes Amendment. They could try a mandatory "buy back", but how would they know if they'd gotten all the guns, or even x% of them?

IMHO, if we get to the point where politicians are willing to even attempt confiscation, and the police and/or military are willing to carry it out, we're already doomed.
 
1. Recreation*
2. Observation of 2A rights
3. Protection of self, family, freedom.

*if recreation is thrown away, trouble looms. Hunting will fall under the recreation umbrella.

As to the "what/when" of using an AR for defense:

Home invasion, maybe

Periods of lawlessness. Watts riots, Rodney King riots, Katrina, London riots, the flash mob event in Texas, etcetera. While Occupy is a peaceful movement, it's also a reminder that there are a lot of people who are upset enough to be exploring different forms of action. Gasoline, waiting for a match.
 
I wonder why the Swat teams use AR's in home entries. Maybe the perfect weapon?
 
I'm not preparing to lose anything. I'm working to GAIN ground. This starts at whatever point your community and state are at RIGHT NOW. In my state, the current fight is to gain constitutional carry and definitively state that a person legally carrying a gun cannot be charged with 'disturbing the peace' or any other kind of 'public disorder'. This is where WE are now. You must look at where YOUR state is.
 
I see absolutely no scenario where I would be in a seige situation at my home, which would be the only scenario where I would use one of those rifles. Here's why.

I live in Dallas in a rather densely populated neighborhood

I live out in the sticks but I wouldn't pick an AR if I were under seige (may let my wife use one) I would be using the beltfed 308.

I'd say the only time I've really needed to have an AR is while shooting 3 gun matches. The whole "need" argument is silly to me. You don't NEED to have a store supply food for you. You don't NEED to have electricity. There are tons of things we have in our lives that we don't need, from loved ones to pets. Not having a need for something is not a good enough reason for me to do without.
 
I was at the gym late last night and CNN was on one of the screens. You know how they let people go online and post comments, which scroll across the screen at the bottom?

I saw one that said "Until we can have a rational discussion on guns in this country, guns will continue to strangle democracy."

If it weren't for guns and the revolution, we wouldn't have democracy. How's that for rational?
 
Coming back to the concept of "necessary":

Are private automobiles really "necessary"? They result in more deaths and property damage every year than firearms. Their use is poorly regulated; obtaining a license to operate these potential death machines is laughably easy. There is public transportation infrastructure in place where the majority of people live, for the rest there's bicycles and animal transportation. Eliminating those noisy, dangerous things would open up our streets and save the lives of our children.

But wait, this is America. People everywhere use their cars for leisure. Some use their cars to make a living. They are a part of America's identity, the allure of the American Ideal. So a lot of people in inner cities don't have a lot of use for them. That doesn't mean we should get rid of them. They do many things better than any alternative.

Ditto the Evil Black Rifle. While yours is little more than a plaything, doesn't mean others have no legitimate use for them, or should give them up.
 
You know, this particular event, perpetrated by a madman, really scares me. Or should I say, the reaction to it scares me. This one is fixing to get some traction I fear. It's even got us second guessing ourselves and the 2nd Amendment.

Here's the deal on this case. Look at the guy's apartment. It took law enforcement almost a week to clear the place because of the wide and apparently sophisticated deployment of IEDs. I don't know it this was hyperbole or not but some EOD people were comparing what they saw to Iraq and Afghanistan.

If this maniac didn't have a gun, AR-15 or otherwise, he would have just stormed into that movie theatre and thrown some of his home-made grenades which, as far as we know right now, were viable and reasonably well made IEDs.

Now I will engage in some hyperbole. In this case, given ALL the facts, we have here the best example I can think of where "Guns don't kill people, people kill people". Yes, it's been said. Yes, it's kind of tired. Yes, this maniac killed the people with a gun, but clearly this maniac was so hell bent on killing folks that he'd have done it anyway.

To the OP. Wake up man. Lot's of stuff that we have in America is not necessary! Necessary is not the criteria that freedom is looking to satisfy. Wake up man. The folks in North Korea get what's necessary, a meal more or less on a regular basis, shelter from the weather, clothes to protect them from the elements, and the means to reproduce. That's all that really necessary man. You want just necessary, North Korea is the place for you. You want freedom? America, warts and all and a few other well chosen places.
 
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A fictional one played by Danny Glover?
lol, exactly.

Sgt. Murtaugh is from Lethal Weapon. I am not a Sgt. Sorry to have mislead you.

And in what world does "preparing to lose this right" mean "I don't care if I lose this right?"

I will do anything that you are prepared to do to make sure my AR's remain safe and sound in my possession. Anything legal, that is.
 
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