Are AR-15's really necessary?

[Trent]

Declaration of independence; Powerful words, even today.

 

[hso]

There's no traction for another AWB.
This has been pointed out in exasperated tones by CNN and Bloomberg and the Brady Campaign and all the other Anti groups.
The NRA has only expressed sympathy for the victims in this incident knowing that the Antis have no traction on AWB and that wallowing in the blood of innocents invokes as much negative as positive response to the people calling for action. People think of folks that do that as ghoulish opportunists and the NRA doesn't want that characterization.

I hope you've learned a few things about the reason the AR makes a good choice for home defense, how Antis really won't be satisfied until they ban your pistols after they ban my AR and how there's no political traction for ARs as long as we don't concede anyone's guns to them.

 

[ol' scratch]

You say concede your rights and would give up the AR's. NEVER concede ANY of your rights. As far as your handguns AND AR's, gun bans have already been deemed unconstititional.

The AR 15 type rifles have been around since the 1960's. They have been used for everything from self defense to hunting. They are to my generation what the 1903 Springfield was to others. You can chamber them for many types of ammuntion and you can use them for hunting. As far as more fun for hunting, they are also very pratical for coyote hunting because of the fact that they are semi automatic in case you need to shoot two dogs or need quick follow up shots. You can find parts for them EVERYWHERE and they are truely the most popular semi automatic firearm in the United States. They are easy to accessorize and they are the rifle most people choose when getting into competitive shooting.

By the way, (thank you Shotgun News for this) they are even using Rock River AR 15 rifles with hi cap mags to hunt hogs as a control measure in Texas from a helicopter.

 

[Trent]

hso,

I wouldn't go so far as to say there's no traction.

Brady campaign facebook, twitter searches for assault weapon ban, etc, all turn up a LOT.

We need to have our game faces on. Seriously.

 

[Warp]

hso,

I wouldn't go so far as to say there's no traction.

Brady campaign facebook, twitter searches for assault weapon ban, etc, all turn up a LOT.

We need to have our game faces on. Seriously.

We are talking a lot about an assault weapons ban. A search would turn up a lot of hits from this board and this thread alone.

Doesn't mean there's traction.

 

[Trent]

Some examples;

Huffington post columnist calling for Obama to take action on an assault weapons ban:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/rober...executive-_b_1692311.html?utm_hp_ref=politics

Demonstrators in the streets holding signs for an assault weapons ban:
https://twitter.com/mark_hanrahan/status/227822433632137217/photo/1

Piers Morgan on CNN last night with Bloomberg urging for a national assault weapons ban:

http://piersmorgan.blogs.cnn.com/category/piers-morgan-tonight/the-piers-morgan-interview/

(Bloomberg is also urging police departments for a nationwide police strike until such laws are enacted)

Denver post editorial:

http://www.denverpost.com/opinion/ci_21140197/editorial-restrict-access-mass-killing-tools

Credo movement formed to ban assault weapons:

http://act.credoaction.com/campaign/obama_romney_guns/?rc=tw1

Dude.. I could go on.. and on.. and on. But there is a MASSIVE movement to ban assault weapons and high cap magazines getting started.

Everyone who cares about gun rights, needs to give this their full and undivided attention (when not working, spending time with family, etc.)

 

[JustinJ]

The antis have only a singular goal, and that is the eventual complete ban of private firearm ownership. It's unbelievable to me that there so many gun owners who are so naive to think they (the antis) only want to ban certain guns. Quite sad.

While it may be convenient and easier to hold black and white views of the world it is just a form of blindness. Do you not realize that there is actually a very large number of gun owners(hunters generally) who believe black rifles should be banned and even hunters who don't agree with ownership of handguns?

 

[Certaindeaf]

Laurels are not for resting on, shields are.

 

[THe Dove]

To the OP "YES"

To CoRoMo, please dissect my reply to the OP...

The Dove

 

[razorback2003]

AR's are fun. If I had the money, I would buy a nice Colt AR 15. I may go ahead and buy some of the good magpul magazines a little at a time to have when I do eventually buy an AR 15.

Now can I accomplish hunting just as well with my 30-30? Of course I can, but the AR does do it with less recoil.

 

[X-Rap]

While it may be convenient and easier to hold black and white views of the world it is just a form of blindness. Do you not realize that there is actually a very large number of gun owners(hunters generally) who believe black rifles should be banned and even hunters who don't agree with ownership of handguns?
__________________

And they should be looked at the same way as Piers Morgan and Mayor Bloomberg, they are not friends, associates, comrades, or patriots. To them this is a sport or hobby and if it goes away they can take up golf or bowling. I have no use for such people and have to verbally restrain myself.

 

[HoosierQ]

Originally Posted by HoosierQ I've got some 60 grain HD hollowpoints loaded up in a mag at home. A Glock 17 is my primary HD weapon and another, a 19 is my CCW because they are handier. But I have a mag loaded up with 30 of the 60 grain hollow points. I wish I could remember what they are. I don't think they're Hornady because they don't have polymer tips. But they are made to break up quickly in wall board, doors, thick glass, etc. Low penetration and not overly hot but they work well in my 20" A2 style. The A2 style doesn't lend itself for HD due to LOA but an M4 style would.

Posted by Warp in response to HoosierQ Sounds like a round with a below-average chance of stopping an attacker.

Nonsense. Any conventional .223/5.56 round has an extremely good chance of stopping an attacker in an HD situation. This round was not designed to penetrate barriers. It's like hunting ammo for HD...dumping all its energy in the target.

 

[mljdeckard]

A lot of people talking about a ban doesn't mean there's any traction. The LAST thing anyone in DC wants right now is a gun control debate. The Huffingtonpuffington post can blather all they want, no gun legislation is going to make it out of committee, and not likely during the next congress either.

 

[12131]

While it may be convenient and easier to hold black and white views of the world it is just a form of blindness. Do you not realize that there is actually a very large number of gun owners(hunters generally) who believe black rifles should be banned and even hunters who don't agree with ownership of handguns?

Yes, of course, I do. Zumbo immediately comes to mind. And, how does that change anything of what I said? The antis have one goal only. And if the hunters think their bolt rifles are safe, think again. See post #66 by hso.

 

[JustinJ]

Yes, of course, I do. Zumbo immediately comes to mind. And, how does that change anything of what I said? The antis have one goal only. And if the hunters think their bolt rifles are safe, think again. See post #66 by hso.

Aren't the hunters who oppose ownership of black rifles by definition not "antis" themselves? Therefore not all antis can believe in the banning of all guns. There are plenty of people who actively oppose specific types of guns who have no objections to other classes such as hunting rifles.

 

[HoosierQ]

Yeah this time it really scares me. It's getting great traction in the media. Not sure about Washington. I was very surprised that almost no traction came after Tuscon. This time, we're not so lucky. However, I don't think it'll fly very long in Washington. We're awake this time...unlike '92 or whenever the first AWB hit. Traction in Washington is going to be hard. Two reasons: 1) Most politicians in Washington, despite what we might think, actually get what the 2nd Amendment really means, Republicans and Democrats, and 2) the Election will serve us well as these people want to get re-elected and gun control does not get people re-elected...it gets people tossed out of office. Look at Indiana. Richard Lugar. Republican. Good politician really. 3 decades on Capitol Hill. Despite sitting on the Republican side of the aisle, a gun control man. Went up against an otherwise unworthy opponent in the Republican primary and got crushed...his gun control stance being one of the points his opponent used against him.

 

[X-Rap]

To the 50 and under crowd the AR 15 is as ubiquitous as the lever action Marlin or Winchester is to the older guys. I have both and if I were to have to choose I would take the AR without any deliberation. There are just so many of these around and they are so popular that those who like them out number those who don't. Couple that with the strong views on self defense and preservation that has developed over the years and people seem more inclined to blame themselves for allowing these tragedies then the tools that the assailant used.

 

[Tex4426]

Yes you need them....if they take away ARs whats to stop them to only allow u to own a muzzleloader...all you here is 675 ppl died in chicago from gunshot wounds this year...well how many wer shot in self defense...how many wer accidental...how many ppl does having a gun save.. u dont here that stuff

 

[italy4nra]

I sincerely apologize if I come across as smarmy, but guys, this is beyond the point. While your Italian shotgun might be your goto firearm, your right to your two AR15s SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED! It is about much more than interpretation of militias and crime statistics correlation. The principles on which your country rests preclude the arbitrary restriction of firearms. The AR15 semi-automatic rifle, the Ruger Ranch Rifle, a Remington 700VTR, or a Savage 223 bolt action are all your constitutional right. It is bad enough the government stripped you of your God-given right (in the words of the founding patriarchs) to a Colt M4A2.

"The whole of the Bill [of Rights] is a declaration of the right of the people at large or considered as individuals…It establishes some rights of the individual as unalienable and which consequently, no majority has the right to deprive them of." –Albert Gallatin, October 7, 1789, New York Historical Society

"...the people are confirmed by the next article in their right to keep and bear their private arms" – from article in the Philadelphia Federal Gazette June 18, 1789 at 2, col.2.

"That the said Constitution shall never be construed to authorize Congress to infringe the just liberty of the press or the rights of conscience; or to prevent the people of The United States who are peaceable citizens from keeping their own arms..." –Samuel Adams, Debates and Proceedings in the Convention of the Commonwealth of Massachusetts, at 86-87 (Pierce & Hale, eds, Boston, 1850).

"The prohibition is general. No clause in the Constitution could by any rule of construction be conceived to give to Congress a power to disarm the people. Such a flagitious attempt could only be made under some general pretense by a state legislature. But if in any blind pursuit of inordinate power, either should attempt it, this amendment may be appealed to as a restraint on both." –William Rawle, A View of the Constitution 125-6 (2nd ed. 1829)

"The right of the citizens to keep and bear arms has justly been considered, as the palladium of the liberties of a republic; since it offers a strong moral check against the usurpation and arbitrary power of rulers; and will generally, even if these are successful in the first instance, enable the people to resist and triumph over them." –Joseph Story, called the father of America’s Jurisprudence, Commentaries on the Constitution of the United States; With a Preliminary Review of the Constitutional History of the Colonies and States before the Adoption of the Constitution [Boston, 1833].

"Firearms stand next in importance to the Constitution itself. They are the American people’s liberty teeth and the keystone under independence." –George Washington

COMMENTARIES ON RIGHT TO BEAR ARMS

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms. The strongest reason for people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government." –Thomas Jefferson papers

"It is not certain that with this aid alone [possession of arms], they would not be able to shake off their yokes. But were the people to posses the additional advantages of local governments chosen by themselves, who could collect the national will, and direct the national force; and of officers appointed out of the militia, by these governments and attached both to them and to the militia, it may be affirmed with the greatest assurance, that the throne of every tyranny in Europe would be speedily overturned, in spite of the legions which surround it." –James Madison, Federalist No. 46.

"To preserve liberty, it is essential that the whole body of people always possess arms, and be taught alike especially when young, how to use them." –Richard Henry Lee, 1788, Initiator of the Declaration of Independence, and member of the first Senate, which passed the Bill of Rights, Walter Bennett, ed., Letters from the Federal Farmer to the Republican, at 21,22,124 (Univ. of Alabama Press, 1975)

"Are we at last brought to such humiliating and debasing degradation, that we cannot be trusted with arms for our defense? Where is the difference between having our arms in possession and under our direction, and having them under the management of Congress? If our defense be the real object of having those arms, in whose hands can they be trusted with more propriety, or equal safety to us, as in our own hands?" –Patrick Henry, 3 J. Elliot, Debates in the Several State Conventions 45, 2d ed. Philadelphia, 1836

"The best we can hope for concerning the people at large is that they be properly armed." –Alexander Hamilton, The Federalist Papers at 184-8

"The people are not to be disarmed of their weapons. They are left in full possession of them." –Zachariah Johnson

"A free people ought … to be armed …" –George Washington

"… the people have a right to keep and bear arms." –Patrick Henry and George Mason, 3 Elliot, Debates at 386

"Arms in the hands of citizens [may] be used at individual discretion for the defense of the country, the overthrow of tyranny, or in private self-defense …" –John Adams

*

"The great object is that every man be armed" and "everyone who is able may have a gun." –Patrick Henry, in the Virginia Convention on the ratification of the Constitution. Debates and other Proceedings of the Convention of Virginia … taken in shorthand by David Robertson of Petersburg, at 271, 275 2d ed. Richmond, 1805. Also 3 Elliot, Debates at 386

"Laws that forbid the carrying of arms…disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes. Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with*greater … confidence than an armed man." –Thomas Jefferson, quoting Cesare Beccaria in On Crimes and punishment (1764).

"The supposed quietude of a good man allures the ruffian; while on the other hand, arms like laws discourage and keep the invader and the plunderer in awe, and preserve order in the world as well as property. The same balance would be preserved were all the world destitute of arms, for all would be alike; but since some will not, others dare not lay them aside…Horrid mischief would ensue were one half the world deprived of the use of them…" –Thomas Paine, Writings of Thomas Paine, at 56,1894, Thoughts on Defensive War (1775).

"When firearms go, all goes; we need them every hour." –George Washington

"A strong body makes the mind strong. As to the species of exercises, I advise the gun. While this gives moderate exercise to the body, it gives boldness, enterprise and independence to the mind. Games played with the ball and others of that nature, are too violent for the body and stamp no character on the mind. Let your gun therefore be the constant companion of your walks." –Thomas Jefferson, The Encyclopedia of T. Jefferson, 318, Foley, Ed.

When speaking in Virginia in a fiery speech for freedom, Patrick Henry proclaimed; "… an appeal to arms and to the God of hosts is all that is left us!"

"The beauty of the second amendment is that it will not be needed until they try to take it." –Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers

And if any of the above are considered not appropriate for today's modern society then we may as well also outlaw the Amish, whole milk, eggs and bacon for every breakfast, and swimming without a lifeguard on duty.

 

[holdencm9]

Aren't the hunters who oppose ownership of black rifles by definition not "antis" themselves? Therefore not all antis can believe in the banning of all guns. There are plenty of people who actively oppose specific types of guns who have no objections to other classes such as hunting rifles.

It is true. There are some antis who would like to see a longer waiting period, restrictions on ammo, tax on ammo, limits on the number of guns you can buy/own, ban on handguns, etc. But they don't demand an all-out ban, they are fine with bolt-action rifles, or over-under shotguns for clay pigeons. Likewise, there are hunters who are against handguns, AR's, etc. And probably even trap shooters who are against shotguns with extended magazine tubes. I don't get it myself, but then again, I don't get the anti mindset at all. We are just wired differently.

 

[HoosierQ]

Well I think Devalier pretty much summed the whole thing up...not with talk like I did...but with citation. Well done sir and thank you. My hat is off to you!

 

[Deanimator]

All joking aside it is not very prudent to start a platform debate as you can hunt anything with a muzzleloader.

PETA would say that you don't need to hunt AT ALL.

 

[italy4nra]

Well I think Devalier pretty much summed the whole thing up...not with talk like I did...but with citation. Well done sir and thank you. My hat is off to you!

Dear Mr. Hoosier,
I cannot take credit for the research and collection, these come from restoringamerica.org. However, I am sure we stand together behind their meaning. I wish my country, which has almost no civil liberties, had men like Thomas Paine alive and rebelling today.
Best,
D

 

[12131]

Aren't the hunters who oppose ownership of black rifles by definition not "antis" themselves? Therefore not all antis can believe in the banning of all guns. There are plenty of people who actively oppose specific types of guns who have no objections to other classes such as hunting rifles.

I don't think you get my point. You think the Schumer, the Boxer, and the Feinstein are the same as the Zumbo? Which group is always planning and scheming to try to take our guns away? The Feinsteins. Which group thinks their guns are safe from banning? Zumbo and the OP.
If you don't get that point, then there's really nothing else to discuss between us.

 

[JN01]

If the govt mandates that you hand in your AR, what are you gonna do? Use it against them until they pry it from your dead hands? doubtful. Move to another country? doubtful. My guess is you're gonna cry and complain (as will I) and you're gonna hand over the gun or refuse to do so and be taken to jail.

Look at what happened with Canada's long gun registration. The vast majority of gun owners simply failed to comply.

What is the government going to do, go door to door to every house in the US looking for AR15s? How many SWAT team members is that going to take?