Are AR-15's really necessary?

[ShamboPyro]

The AR-15 is a battle rifle. Unless your going to war, it would make a poor self defense choice, but...... WHO CARES? We all have the right to own an AR-15 or any other gun we choose. We DON"T need to prove that to ANYONE.

 

[Kiln]

Yeah if you start down that road you might end up on this one:

Are semi automatics necessary at all? They can fire almost as quickly as an automatic. Do we really need bolt action weapons? A trained shooter with a bolt action firearm can fire almost as quickly as a person armed with a semi automatic. Are single shots really necessary? A trained shooter can load and fire a single shot weapon almost as quickly as you can a bolt action rifle.

 

[JustinJ]

I don't think you get my point. You think the Schumer, the Boxer, and the Feinstein are the same as the Zumbo? Which group is always planning and scheming to try to take our guns away? The Feinsteins. Which group thinks their guns are safe from banning? Zumbo and the OP.

The people you listed above are not the only advocates for gun control. I is false to say all who support gun control wish for the same level of gun control.

 

[SaxonPig]

Doesn't matter what is and isn't "necessary." As a free citizen I own the gun I want.

Nobody "needs" a 400 hp V-8 engine in his car. But if I want one it's nobody business but me.

If AR15s can be banned, no gun is safe from being legislated out of existence.

Anyone who thinks they will STOP at "assault weapons" is a fool. They want to ban ALL guns.

 

[Certaindeaf]

Look at what happened with Canada's long gun registration. The vast majority of gun owners simply failed to comply.

What is the government going to do, go door to door to every house..

No, they'll just catch them with them, perhaps, throw them in jail, take their gun, their house (ultimately.. you can't really pay the mortgage if you're in prison I think), voting rights, etc.. I'm just guessing though.
Also, what good is an invisible "gun" if it's hidden away/useless?

 

[C5rider]

My humble .02

I've had several other hobbies throughout the years that are totally different from shooting, firearms or anything of the sort. You could say that they are of a "much more harmless nature" and typically fly way under the radar of any anti-groups.

EACH hobby that I've enjoyed, has been plagued by threats of limitations and/or outright elimination at the hands of others who didn't feel that our actions were necessary. Totally discounting the fact that we enjoyed our hobbies, they didn't see any enjoyment in it and therefore, felt that our "time, space and efforts" could be better served finding something else to do. They had no empathy for our views and therefore, we were constantly fighting to keep those things that we enjoyed. What were these hobbies that were "better off dead"? How about flying model airplanes (just got evicted from our fly field), Motorized bicycles (Thankfully, my state/local LEOs are very open to our efforts as we don't give them any reason to be otherwise) and cars (hot rodding). While we've not lost these hobbies entirely, if you look at each one closely, you can see how they too are under the constant eye of those who don't get it.

I've often wondered if there was SOMETHING that these irritating folks liked to do that I could use as an example. What is it that they enjoy, that if we started talking about limiting or elimninating, might get their attention. I sort of thought about the limiting of soft drinks that is in the news, but as I studied the situation more and watched both sides of the fence, I've figured out that the one thing that they enjoy the most isn't necessarily something that they like to do. It's that feeling of control, when they play rainmaker over others. The only way they will taste the sour flavor of taking away another's rights is to take that power away from them. Personally, I'm getting tired of "finding something else to do."

 

[Trent]

The assault weapon ban wouldn't have stopped the JFK assassination.

Wouldn't have stopped the University of Texas shooting.

Wouldn't have affected the Virginia Tech shooting.

Etc.

That's why it's "a slippery slope."

They'll *EVENTUALLY* come after the bolt action rifles, etc.

 

[italy4nra]

Look at what happened with Canada's long gun registration. The vast majority of gun owners simply failed to comply.

What is the government going to do, go door to door to every house in the US looking for AR15s? How many SWAT team members is that going to take?

Protection of the second ammendment rights are vital to keeping the political will to do so NIL. All US gun bans as far as I know have been on the manufacture or import after a certain date. 2A, as well as a STRONG check on the executive branch, is a key part of what keeps such actions impossible. No one will need to ever fight for their ARs.... unless you start giving an inch... and then another.... and then another.

Speaking of Canada, do some fact checking on the executive branch violation of a centuries old US/Canada border treaty. Canada did not pull out their long arms to fight it, but neither did Americans and another right was taken away...

 

[hso]

Bolt action rifles have already been treated as "sniper rifle" by opportunistic politicians and media persons. That's one of the points we have to make with people that don't think that their precious pre-64 .243 Remington is somehow acceptable to the Antis.

Keep in mind that standard hunting ammunition has been targeted in the past in the Anti rhetoric.

The point is that the AR is a suitable HD weapon and has some characteristics superior to other choices, it is now used in hunting (Zumbo found that out the hard way) and is the single most sold rifle in the country. Accepting the Anti myths around this particular firearm and conceding it, and similar ones, in a legislative struggle will not satisfy gun banners.

 

[Trent]

Good point HSO, I never thought of a good argument to give the hunter-only crowd.

 

[Trent]

Here's an argument for AR's.

Fun for the whole family.

Taught my boy to shoot one when he was 12.. and to clean it..

That makes the AR a family heirloom, right? Can't go around taking a guy's family heirlooms away!

 

[BADUNAME37]

That is like asking are V-8 Engines really necessary?

No, not really, we can all drive around in low-powered 4 and 6 cylinder cars in hopes that we don't need to pass someone on a two-lane road, driving up a hill.

Maybe "they" will invent 2 cylinder cars for us, you know, save the environment and all that good stuff!

 

[SwissArmyDad]

AR's are necessary and I love mine.

It protects my wife.

It protects my 3 kids.

It's an expression of my support of 2a

It's as clear of a retort to California's gun laws as I can legally manage.

It's the SUV of firearms for our family. One that everyone can shoot.

FDE is just S*xy.



While I grieve with those in Colorado, having had the same type of violence touch my family, this is my respectful retort to being okay with any kind "rights surrendering" being considered in other threads.

Cheers.

 

[JN01]

Protection of the second ammendment rights are vital to keeping the political will to do so NIL. All US gun bans as far as I know have been on the manufacture or import after a certain date. 2A, as well as a STRONG check on the executive branch, is a key part of what keeps such actions impossible. No one will need to ever fight for their ARs.... unless you start giving an inch... and then another.... and then another.

Speaking of Canada, do some fact checking on the executive branch violation of a centuries old US/Canada border treaty. Canada did not pull out their long arms to fight it, but neither did Americans and another right was taken away...

The OP indicated that he expected a new "assault weapon" ban, would be the first in line to turn his in, and saw the alternative as shooting it out with the cops sent to round them up.

I personally think a renewed ban is extremely unlikely at this point in time, and as you pointed out, even more unlikely to include those currently in circulation. RKBA has been winning not only in the courts, but in public opinion.

I was trying to express that even if such a ban occurred, the logistics of enforcing it would be nearly impossible, and that civil disobedience could also be an option which could be effective in reversing it.

Also, what good is an invisible "gun" if it's hidden away/useless?

Valid point. On the other hand, what good would the 2nd Amendment be if the government passed sweeping confiscation laws in violation of it and everyone simply complied?

 

[9mmepiphany]

I can't believe you folks got to 5 pages so quickly. I'll have to admit I only skimmed pages 2-4, so forgive me if I'm repeating something here.

I spent 28 years in LE, so besides my handgun being a constant companion, I've put a lot of 12ga rounds through a department issued Remington 870. I even paid for a real shotgun class out of my own pocket to learn to run it most efficiently. I'm pretty good now, but my shotgun of choice is a FN SLP over any pumpgun.

I'm mostly a handgun guy...because I like the challenge. But a class a couple of years ago really made my reevaluate my home defense needs. It was during a class I was instructing in, in Ohio, where the subject of penetration came up in home defense. Most folks lived in an urban or suburban setting as opposed to a rural neighborhood.

We compared the penetration of 9mm, .40 and .45 pistol rounds against 5.56X45mm and 5.45x39mm carbine rounds. We also tested 12ga 00 buck, 0 buck and #1 buck. We did the testing using water filled milk jugs and also placed layers of sheet rock as intervening barriers..

At a distance of 7 yards....21 feet is longer than an average living room...the shotgun pellets penetrated the most jugs, followed by the handgun rounds, with the carbine round showing the least penetration. If your primary HD longgun is a shotgun, I'd carefully reevaluate that choice. It isn't any easier to hit with it and there is more danger of stray pellets causing collateral damage.

It is an easy test if you want to try it yourself. The medium, water encased in plastic, doesn't need to simulate flesh as you are only measuring comparative penetration

 

[Formula94]

Here's the key thing to remember. They aren't after ARs. They aren't after handguns. They aren't after 'combat shotguns'. They aren't after hunting guns. They are after ALL guns. In dividing them into categories, they are trying to divide US into groups, and get us to go against each other, and be willing to throw each other under the bus, they don't have to take all of us on at once. If you admit that a certain kind of gun is just a hobby, and not NECESSARY, then you admitting that you would be willing to give it up.

Truth.

 

[Skyshot]

" Are AR-15's really necesary?" It's all about free choice in a free country and hopefully we will all die free men.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

Are AR-15's really necessary?

Is voting really necessary?
Is freedom of speech really necessary?
Is freedom of religion really necessary?
Is the right to trial by jury really necessary?

 

[silicosys4]

It would do to remind others that "living by necessity" is one of the holy mantra's of that old chestnut, communism.

 

[CoRoMo]

Vern is my favorite seventy-year-old of all time!

 

[Frank Ettin]

...At a distance of 7 yards....21 feet is longer than an average living room...the shotgun pellets penetrated the most jugs, followed by the handgun rounds, with the carbine round showing the least penetration....

Yup.

A few years ago, our local PD "retired" the shotguns carried in the cruisers. The shotguns were replaced with AR15s for that very reason. (And now the shotguns sport bright orange stocks and are limited to less lethal munitions.)

 

[Deanimator]

I wouldn't go so far as to say there's no traction.

Talk isn't traction.

There was lots of talk BEFORE the shootings.

There's nothing to discuss.

The answer is still "No, I don't want to."

 

[ugaarguy]

Those who think an AR with 16" barrel makes the ideal home defense weapon should try firing one indoors sometime. Actually, don't because you will experience permanent hearing damage and temporary loss of sight if done in the dark. Smoke detectors will go off but that's not a problem as you won't be able to hear anything anyways. Unless run with a sound suppressor you better make the first shot count because it will be hard to make another so disoriented.

.357 Mag is still significantly louder, and 18" bbl 12ga shotgun is just as loud as a 16" bbl .223. http://www.freehearingtest.com/hia_gunfirenoise.shtml

i don't know what's so special about ar-15 compared to other semi-auto long guns, they all shoot bullets

Superior ergonomics, ease of mounting optics, lights, etc; ease of customizing to just about any task, common magazines, common ammo, and several generations of veterans who are very familiar with it while they may not be as familiar with other semi-auto rifles.

The AR-15 is a battle rifle. Unless your going to war, it would make a poor self defense choice,

I'd encourage you to read back over the strongly supported responses in this threat which address how just the opposite is true. That aside...

but...... WHO CARES? We all have the right to own an AR-15 or any other gun we choose. We DON"T need to prove that to ANYONE.

Very well said sir.

 

[ArfinGreebly]

Lightweight, Ergonomic Self-Loader

I might concede that the "AR" is unnecessary . . .

. . . so long as you have ready access to a lightweight, ergonomic, rapid-firing self-loader capable of engaging at any distance from bad-breath to a hundred yards.

It could be a Ruger Ranch Rifle or a Kel-Tec SU-16 or an older M1 Carbine. Or maybe something French or Russian.

I'm not all that picky. As long as you have a decent, high performance, competent carbine or rifle, you're good to go. Because, in the context of the Second Amendment, such a personal small arm is absolutely necessary. Such a personal arm is a primary foundation of our nation.

Setting aside the Constitutional and Founding notions of having every man be armed, let's look at it another way.

Survival is a matter of competitive advantage. The quality of your survival is a function of those measures you take to hold that advantage. You drive a car or truck because it gives you superior mobility and choices. You live in sanitary conditions and avail yourself of medical and detail facilities because good health improves mobility, stamina, and clear thinking. You take measures to preserve your possessions -- like insurance and fire extinguishers -- because those things improve your life in ways that provide motivation to prosper or to survive better.

You don't short change yourself in those areas out of some misguided idea that "prosperity isn't necessary" because you understand that prosperity is vital to survival.

The defense of your person and of your family against the depredations of bandits and tyrants is every bit as necessary as the other measures you take, and the quality of your defensive tools should reflect your commitment to that.

Therefore, given the importance of this aspect of everyday survival, what's necessary is the most universally adaptable defensive weapon available.

Maybe that's not an AR. However, the AR is certainly the standard by which all other defensive systems are measured. The AR sets the bar.

I would argue that someone who considers self defense (or home defense) an important part of his ability to prosper, and who yet does not own an AR -- or at least some decent, high performance, competent carbine or rifle -- has failed to adequately assess his necessities.

I don't own an AR. Financial things keep getting in the way.

However, I do own a decent, competent, self-loading carbine with good performance characteristics, as well as a couple of rifles fitting that same description. The AR will come when I can muster the cash.


Having said all of that, I hafta ask, who wouldn't want to have a classic sporting rifle on hand?


The original classic:

 

[barnbwt]

Taught my boy to shoot one when he was 12.. and to clean it..

Careful, a photo of a young man properly maintaining a firearm would make one heck of a scary stock-photo for a slam-piece...

Thank goodness they haven't chased-up a photo of Carrot-Job with his guns yet (unlike the VA Tech guy, whose mean-mug was blasted everywhere for weeks)

TCB