RetiredUSNChief
Member
In otherwords, they're NOT illegal. Unless one has to first jump through the hoop by doing something to MAKE them illegal, just like for any other gun.
Are ATF often 'plainclothes' at gun shows?
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In otherwords, they're NOT illegal. Unless one has to first jump through the hoop by doing something to MAKE them illegal, just like for any other gun.
No such law in Ohio.
What I meant is the gun(s) that the undercover ATF agent is selling has these characteristics, then busts you for buying/possessing a firearm with a removed serial number or that was imported illegally. So (again very unlikely, just an example) the agent had made the gun illegal in these fashions and once you buy it he charges you.
Danged if I know. I don't sell guns. I buy some but sell very few. My guess is that they might have claimed I was buying them to re-sell which would have made it a straw purchase. I do know they check the number of guns people have for sale at that flea market. I don't know the laws. I just don't trust the ATF and I have a lot of reasons to believe that's who I was talking to.
RetiredUSNChief
Member
Again, this is based on the person buying the gun reasonably KNOWING that it's illegal.
For example, a removed serial number should be obvious. (By the way, a removed serial number in an of itself does not constitute making the gun illegal, so long as there is appropriate documentation of this. I once bought a 1911 from a friend with a partially removed serial number. It had been stolen and subsequently recovered by the police in this condition. He was able to identify the gun through other unique markings and get it back from the police. I bought it from him and got a copy of the police report documenting the damaged serial number marking. Later sold it to someone else, also with that documentation.)
An illegally imported gun may be another matter, however. If it's a gun that's flat out not legal to import into the United States, then that should be something that's obvious to anybody who may be interested. However, if it's an otherwise perfectly legal gun to own, how is one to know that it was illegally imported?
The crux with buying such illegal guns as you mention by example is that the buyer has to be capable of reasonably determining that it's, in fact, an illegal gun. Otherwise what ACTUALLY happened is the SELLER fraudulently SOLD an illegal gun under the guise of it being legal. And THAT is a felony. What the buyer did was purchase something that was being PRESENTED as a legal product.
Imagine how the following particular scenario might go over in a court of law:
Prosecuter: This man is charged with illegally purchasing a fully automatic Thompson Submachine Gun from undercover ATF agents.
Defense: Your honor, here is the bill of sale for the firearm in question. It shows in writing that my client was sold a semi-automatic Thompson Submachine Gun, S/N XXXXXXXX. There are no external signs or other evidence present on the firearm which shows that it was ever tampered with or otherwise visibly engineered to be a fully automatic weapon. In addition, the security video recordings of the sales transaction that took place during this supposed undercover ATF operation clearly shows that the firearm was being advertised and marketed as a semi-automatic firearm. My client thus purchased a firearm that was presented to him as a semi-automatic firearm, which is perfectly legal in accordance with federal law. This means that the ATF agents setting up this sale illegally sold my client a fully automatic firearm while presenting the merchandise as a 100% legal semi-automatic gun.
Judge: Defense and Prosecution come to my chambers.
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SilentStalker
Member
Yes, I am friends with several ATF employees and I can tell you without a doubt that they walk around and patrol in plain clothes.
buck460XVR
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Probably not. Since I don't have a drug problem and I don't go around breaking laws.
The word "some" in your statement about your friend makes me think there was more than one.As I said in a previous post. You are who your friends are. You regularly associate with suspected/convicted felons and guess what? Law enforcement is going to suspect you also. If indeed you were targeted, this is probably the reason. It is something all law enforcement does. Druggies hang out with other druggies. Hookers hang out with other hookers. Gangbangers hang out with other gangbangers. Just how it works out. You can be innocent as a newly baptized baby, but be seen continuously hangin' around with a known drug dealer and you will be suspected of dealing drugs. One does not have to be a brain surgeon to figure that out.
Ignition Override
Member
You guys/gals did a very thorough job of answering my original question and in an educational manner.
Thank you.
Thank you.
AWorthyOpponent
Member
If any of the three letter agencies don't want you to know that they are LEO, you won't know. They're not stupid. Of course they are at gun shows, just like the DEA would be at a drug dealing seminar. They drive average cars with random "my kids on honor roll" stickers. Nothing identifying or personal. They even have cars that are scratched, dented, and run poorly. They can be clean cut, look homeless, or be that guy you see walking his dog all the time. Point is that they're there, and you will not know who they are unless they want you to.
Best way to avoid getting arrested is to not do things that are illegal. Like others have said, you are the company you keep. If I knew a friend was doing/dealing drugs, I wouldn't be hanging out with him let alone going to gun shows with him. Of course every scenario is different, and I can't give a truly valid opinion without knowing more...
Best way to avoid getting arrested is to not do things that are illegal. Like others have said, you are the company you keep. If I knew a friend was doing/dealing drugs, I wouldn't be hanging out with him let alone going to gun shows with him. Of course every scenario is different, and I can't give a truly valid opinion without knowing more...
so what... if an undercover ATF agent offers a licensed dealer (not a private party) a "bit extra" to avoid the background check and sell the gun outside - and the dealer is dumb enough to do it .... he gets arrested. no issues with that. ATF is there to enforce federal law... not more or less. Kinda like the DEA does for drug laws (well... WA / CO are a different story) or Immigration should enforce federal immigration laws.
That wouldn't be a straw purchase. I'm not a big fan of the ATF but I know how it's going to work. They're not going to sell you legal looking guns in a legal looking transaction. They'll let you know the transaction is illegal in some way. Up to you to walk away.
I don't think many people complain about feds not enforcing laws against, say, straw purchases between two non restricted adults. And yeah, we're going to complain if the ATF, instead of doing their jobs properly and going after bad guys, spend their time setting up people who simply don't know better, or are too mentally deficient to know better.
Ok, after 6 pages I am pretty sure this one has been beat to death. Remember ignorance of the law is not a defense and conduct your business and life as if someone is watching. Because they are....
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