zxcvbob
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That's not even a gun, it's an antique
Are ATF often 'plainclothes' at gun shows?
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That's not even a gun, it's an antique
Pizzapinochle
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I think you should have bought them. I don't even know what you think he was "setting you up" for. If you have the cash to buy a bunch of guns that are worth more than he is selling them for, go for it as long as you follow state/federal law.
There is no law against buying a bunch of guns. Unless you buy them then turn around and immediately begin reselling them for a profit right then, there would not have been a crime committed for them to arrest you for.
There is no such thing as 'pushing the envelope' it's either illegal or it isn't. If it isn't illegal then you're within your Rights to do it. Sometimes that does make people a target, but tough, exercise your Rights as long as it's within the law, even if it's right up to the 'envelope' as some would call it.
AABEN
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I never new they had any other but reg clothing! I was a dealer and set up at gun shows and never worried about them!! I did what the law was and never worried!!!
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deputy tom
Member
22-rimfire, I'm not sure what the change in PA law you refer to but all handgun transfers must go thru an FFL dealer and have for at least forty years that I know of. tom.
I'm sure these things (entrapments) happen occasionally, but I have been going to the Tulsa Gun Show for the past 10 years and my old buddies have been going for the past 30 years. None of us has ever heard of any such event at this or any other gun show or gun auction. Rule of Thumb: Just be sure you know the law and follow it.
I think you found them.
evan price
Member
Who cares? I'm not doing anything illegal. It's a free country. If ATF wants to attend a gun show I can't stop them. It's not a private event so they are not even uninvited guests.
And the ATF never set up Randy Weaver in an illegal operation either. They talked him into sawing off a shotgun then charged him with the crime and tried to pressure him to turn on his friends. It's called entrapment and they were found guilty of it. You trust the ATF way more than I do. They could easily claim I was an illegal gun dealer with a quantity of semi-auto, high capacity rifles like those SKS's. I wouldn't know anyone to rat out so who knows where it would have went from there. My friends obey the laws but the AFT wouldn't accept that answer IMO. That's based on the stuff I've seen them do in recent decades.
alsaqr
Member
Many years ago i had a run-in with a rogue ATF SAC. However, the vast majority of BATFE agents are decent guys: i know a few of them from my days running EOD/UXO clearance sites where they inspected my explosive storage and accountability. Never had any problem passing their inspections.
Some BATFE agents are gun nuts too: They like to attend guns shows on their day off. Yep, if they see a flagrant violation of US gun law they will arrest someone, as it should be.
Some BATFE agents are gun nuts too: They like to attend guns shows on their day off. Yep, if they see a flagrant violation of US gun law they will arrest someone, as it should be.
Madcap_Magician
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Not enough BATFE agents in my neck of the woods to roam gun shows.
They're way behind just on dealer inspections.
They're way behind just on dealer inspections.
buck460XVR
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Folks "push" the envelope all the time. The envelope is not the law itself, that is as black and white as the paper it's written on, but peoples perception and respect of that law. Speeding is a prime example. Sign on the highway says "55 MPH", folks set their cruise on 59. They know the law, and drive by cops all the time doing 59. One day they get stopped and now they are mad at the cop for enforcing the law. Hunting regs say season closes @ 4:30. 4:32 a buck steps out and gets popped. Hunter gets fined and is mad @ the warden cause it was only 2 minutes.
Yep and Vice cops dressed like hookers talk Johns into asking for sex, just like Narcs talk drug dealers into selling them drugs. In ALL of those cases, had those guilty said NO! and walked away, there would be no issue. Again, I'm not saying Randy Weaver was not wronged, but it was he and his previous actions that put him in that position to have those wrongs done to him. Most drug dealers don't get caught on their first drug deal, most hookers don't get caught turnin' their first trick. Weaver was a follower of a nationwide terrorist organization, not Joe Smoe lookin' to buy a deer rifle. Like I told both my boys growing up......You are who your friends are. Run with dirtballs, you are a dirtball. Go to a gun show with folks known to deal in illegal firearms and guess what? As for the sawed off shotgun, I believe that charge was dropped because Randy himself did not cut the shotgun off, he just told the undercover agent where to cut it off.
As for your case of SKSs, did you see them? Did you hear of anyone else charged with gun crimes after stopping at that Flea Market? How are you so sure it was a ATF agent and not some low life trying to mug you after you admit to having money and following him out back? Those are the folks one is more likely to encounter and be taken advantage of at a local Flea Market. Those are the folks one should be suspicious of and have fear of. Had you bought those firearms from an ATF agent, took 'em to your car and drove away, you would have had a nice bunch of hard to get firearms for little of nothing. All the intentions in the world that the Agent had of entrapping you would have been for naught. Again, doing nuttin' illegal, generally means not getting caught.
Pizzapinochle
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So anyone with a quantity of semi-auto, high capacity rifles can be targeted as an illegal gun dealer?
I think there are a LOT of folks on here with a large quantity of semi-auto, high capacity rifles that are not the least bit worried about being targeted as an illegal gun dealer by the ATF.
Again, no law against having a lot of guns. If I have the cash, i can go down the street and buy out an LGS and that does not make me an illegal gun dealer until I start trying to sell them.
I don't know what you experienced at that flea market, but I think you are imagining things if you think you were randomly being targeted by the ATF.
RetiredUSNChief
Member
You know, for the people worried about being "set up" or "entrapped", and such, you're forgetting something:
Getting caught at something illegal requires people to engage in an illegal activity in the first place...kinda like how you can't get caught cheating at a race without first actually entering into the race activities in the first place...and then actually cheating during the race.
An undercover officer offering an opportunity to commit a criminal act to someone does not make that person a criminal. The person who takes the officer up on the offer and actually COMMITS the criminal act is the one who took the steps to actually perform the crime.
If one is at a gun show, buying/selling/looking...if a business transaction presents itself and it's above board, then okie-dokie. If it's not above board...then it's absolutely no different than any other opportunity at committing a criminal act: either you'll decide to commit it or you'll decide not to.
If you avail yourself of the opportunity to commit a criminal act, you takes your chances and you pays the consequences.
Getting caught at something illegal requires people to engage in an illegal activity in the first place...kinda like how you can't get caught cheating at a race without first actually entering into the race activities in the first place...and then actually cheating during the race.
An undercover officer offering an opportunity to commit a criminal act to someone does not make that person a criminal. The person who takes the officer up on the offer and actually COMMITS the criminal act is the one who took the steps to actually perform the crime.
If one is at a gun show, buying/selling/looking...if a business transaction presents itself and it's above board, then okie-dokie. If it's not above board...then it's absolutely no different than any other opportunity at committing a criminal act: either you'll decide to commit it or you'll decide not to.
If you avail yourself of the opportunity to commit a criminal act, you takes your chances and you pays the consequences.
The think the worry is that somehow a law will be overlooked during the 'setup' that will put a law abiding American in hot water.
I could see an ATF agent selling a converted Saiga 12 that wasn't in 922r compliance and then busting the buyer. Or even a coach gun with a 17.75" barrel. Perhaps an AR that has been illegally modified to full auto which you wouldn't notice at first glance but loved that price tag of $400.
I could see an ATF agent selling a converted Saiga 12 that wasn't in 922r compliance and then busting the buyer. Or even a coach gun with a 17.75" barrel. Perhaps an AR that has been illegally modified to full auto which you wouldn't notice at first glance but loved that price tag of $400.
RetiredUSNChief
Member
The think the worry is that somehow a law will be overlooked during the 'setup' that will put a law abiding American in hot water.
I could see an ATF agent selling a converted Saiga 12 that wasn't in 922r compliance and then busting the buyer. Or even a coach gun with a 17.75" barrel. Perhaps an AR that has been illegally modified to full auto which you wouldn't notice at first glance but loved that price tag of $400.
If what one is buying isn't in accordance with the law but is being sold as that, then there is a case for fraud. If coach gun with a 17.75" barrel is being sold as a legal coach gun with a legal barrel length of 18", then that's the expected product being sold. One would not reasonably expect to have to bring a tape measure and a dowel rod to do a precise measurement to verify a legal barrel length under normal circumstances, unless there was some reason to doubt the accuracy. (Such as a non-factory, personally modified barrel or a barrel length which, to the casual observer, is actually noticeably shorter than the legal length.)
If the SELLER knowingly sells you a coach gun, advertised as having a legal barrel length, which is, in fact, NOT legal, then the SELLER is committing a felony.
There is quite a bit of room to fight such a battle. And, contrary to popular belief, law enforcement does not wish to set themselves up in such cases in which they may have their keisters handed to them in a court of law. On "sting" operations, they'll stick to the clear cut scenarios because convictions are cut and dry in those cases.
RetiredUSNChief - The ATF has been getting away with that for many years. The recent fiasco of them hiring mentally retarded people to broker illegal gun deals, enticing teenagers with female agents and alcohol and telling people to cut down barrels before they sell them are just some of the recent activity they've been getting away with.
Edventures
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Just because your paraniod doesn't mean they are not out to get you.
IF FTF sales are not illegal in your area ,then they are not illegal.
If you are required to fill out paper work of any kind, and you don't.
then you should be worried.
IF FTF sales are not illegal in your area ,then they are not illegal.
If you are required to fill out paper work of any kind, and you don't.
then you should be worried.
Let's see some credible documentation.Ryanxia said:
Unless something the buyer does should give the seller reasonable cause to believe he's a prohibited person (18 USC 922(d)) or from anther State (18 USC 922(a)(5)).Edventures said:
Seems credible
http://www.ohiocrimelaw.com/atf-making-arrests-for-crimes-that-they-create/
"■ ATF agents befriended mentally disabled people to drum up business and later arrested them. In Wichita, ATF agents referred to a man with a low IQ as “slow-headed” before deciding to secretly use him as a key cog in their sting whereas agents in Albuquerque gave a brain-damaged drug addict with little knowledge of weapons a “tutorial” on machine guns, hoping he could find them one."
Also
http://www.jsonline.com/watchdog/wa...-across-the-nation-b99146765z1-234916641.html
"In Pensacola, the ATF hired a felon to run its pawnshop. The move widened the pool of potential targets, boosting arrest numbers.Even those trying to sell guns legally could be charged if they knowingly sold to a felon."
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The Milwaukee Journal Sentinel looks like a credible source.Midwest said:
I'd be skeptical of The Atlantic. Years ago there was a print magazine, The Atlantic Monthly, which had an excellent reputation. It was kind of "high brow" and very solid. Looking at some of the articles in the on-line The Atlantic suggests to me that it no longer has the stature of its print namesake.
Thank you for the links.
Yeah but I didn't do anything wrong. That didn't stop them from trying to make me in the wrong. Again the reason I know it was an ATF agent was first, he had that federal agent look about him. If you don't recognize the look then there are plenty who can explain it. Overly neat, dress shirt tucked in, hair recently cut and combed perfectly, the shoes, dress pants, and several other things that are common about pretty much every agent I've ever seen. Not only that but I had been warned they were there that day. I have spoken to people who sell guns there who say they get checked often by the ATF. And BTW they get checked for how many guns they have for sale. I don't know the exact law because I don't do anything that makes me have to worry about it.
But mostly when someone offers you a deal that's too good to be true it almost certainly is. There's a whole lot of evidence to indicate the guy was ATF. He was much smaller than me so a mugger wasn't something I suspected. He wasn't small. I'm just big. He should have suspected that I was carrying a concealed weapon because of walking around in a place where everything takes cash to buy so I would have had cash on me too. And he would have been right about me carrying. I don't go there without protection.
There's a lot of evidence to point to the guy being ATF. I didn't ask for his ID but there was very little evidence he was a mugger or legit. How many people are selling crates of SKS's for 1990's prices? None would be the answer to that. He sure wouldn't have had to try to hawk them at a flea market. He could have sold them to any legit gun dealer not to mention any one of the dozens of people selling guns at the flea market. Why did he pick me? I sure don't smell like money. I don't wear expensive clothes and I don't flash a bunch of cash because I don't take a bunch of cash to flea markets. I go there to buy tools, not guns. I only buy things I get a really good deal on.
IMO the chances are at least 90% he was ATF. I've explained this enough now. If you don't believe me then don't. I don't care. I know what I saw though. I know what I heard too. ATF was there that day. And IMO he approached me because I checked out every gun seller there. I like to look but I don't even buy at flea markets because the chances of getting burned are too high.
I gave good evidence he was ATF. I see nothing but speculation from people who weren't there and have never been there from the people who are second guessing my conclusions. They won't change my mind.
The Atlantic had a interesting write up on the secret history of guns a few years back.
http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2011/09/the-secret-history-of-guns/308608/1/
RetiredUSNChief
Member
If any of the links mentioned are credible...then it would appear that the ATF would be getting set up to have their keisters handed to them over this...a situation I mentioned which they will not like in court at all.
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