Are Popular Handgun Cartridges Less Effective Against Bodybuilders/Strength Trainers?

[Timthinker]

Various contributors at THR have noted that handguns bullets are not automatic death rays that instantly incapacitate an assailant. I think we would all agree with this observation. But are popular handgun rounds such as the .357 Magnum and .40 S&W less effective against bodybuilders/strength trainers than ordinary individuals? As a weight lifter, I have wondered about this possibility since one of the benefits of lifting is greater strength and endurance than my more sedentary friends possess. Do these physical benefits of weight lifting also reduce the immediate effectiveness of handgun rounds to produce instantaneous stopping power?

In posting this inquiry, let me make clear what I am not stating to avoid any possible confusion. I am not stating that popular handgun cartridges can not instantly stop someone with a wound to the brain or spine. Nor am I attempting to state psychological factors can not play a role in stopping power. I believe this too is a possibility. Instead, I wonder if the increased size and strength of an individual make them more difficult to stop.


Timthinker

 

[cslinger]

You know I have actually heard the opposite. I have read of a few instances where extremely obese folks have taken rounds into their fat layer without them penetrating deep enough to do any real damage. Of course these are just anecdotes that I have read.

Chris

 

[Cosmoline]

The bigger the person, the more tissue the bullet must penetrate to do the same damage. It certainly is more difficult to stop a 350 lb. man than a 150 lb. man. And since most of our rounds were in fact designed to stop 150 lb. men that should be food for thought. 10" of penetration isn't enough. 15" may not be enough. Fat, muscle and sheer size all make a person harder to bring down. A body builder will also have a better circulatory system.

Heck, cops have had to come up with newer, stronger hand cuffs to deal with modern suspects. I have little faith in a hi-vel light grain weight handgun round against such people, and the vaunted nonsense about "overpenetration" really doesn't concern me when facing a veritable mountain.

 

[Skas]

<< are popular handgun rounds such as the .357 Magnum and .40 S&W less effective against bodybuilders/strength trainers than ordinary individuals? As a weight lifter, I have wondered about this possibility since one of the benefits of lifting is greater strength and endurance than my more sedentary friends possess. Do these physical benefits of weight lifting also reduce the immediate effectiveness of handgun rounds to produce instantaneous stopping power? >>

<< I am not stating that popular handgun cartridges can not instantly stop someone with a wound to the brain or spine. Nor am I attempting to state psychological factors can not play a role in stopping power. I believe this too is a possibility. Instead, I wonder if the increased size and strength of an individual make them more difficult to stop. >>


In a word, no. As you point out, CNS hits will quickly incapacitate virtually anyone. And, as you point out again, psychological characteristics may also figure in, insofar as the person being wounded may "expect" to be and react as if, say, a .22lr in a non-vital area is completely incapacitating in and of itself. Perhaps in this manner, an athlete/martial artist - accustomed to physical stress - ~may~ respond differently and be able to better resist the effects of wounding in a non-vital area. (Also note some gunshot victims using certain drugs can also be quite resistant to non-vital wounding.)

But - short of CNS hits - the real factor that takes down the gunshot victim is massive blood loss, resulting in hypovolemic shock. And no amount of physical conditioning of any sort will allow a gunshot victim to resist that, IMO.

 

[Timthinker]

Perhaps if I provided the genesis for this thread, then it might make matters clearer. Not long ago, I purchased a book on the American West that was filled with 19th century photographs. Looking at these photos, I noticed that both the settlers and natives seemed smaller in stature and physique than some fellow lifters I know. This started me to wonder if the vaunted Colt .45 "Peacemaker", which the book discussed, would prove as effective against modern men who have benefitted from better nutrition and muscle building exercises. Again, this is an idea that dawned upon me and I thought it might make for an interesting discussion.


Timthinker

 

[Timthinker]

Skas, welcome to the forums. I hope we will hear more from you. Now to my comments. We both agree that a wound to the central nervous system (CNS) will produce instant stopping power. We both agree that even a large man can "bleed out" from a gunshot wound. The difference we may have is in the amount of time needed for shock to set in. I tend to believe a large weight lifter may not go into instantaneous shock, thus possessing enough time to harm/kill his assailant before falling victim the wound. This is the point I am attempting to make. It seems to me a larger, well conditioned individual may retain the ability to fight for a brief period of time, long enough to shoot or club his assailant to death. Hopefully, these additional comments clearify my position. Once again, welcome to THR and I hope you enjoy this site.


Timthinker

 

[Geronimo45]

The bigger the person, the more tissue the bullet must penetrate to do the same damage. It certainly is more difficult to stop a 350 lb. man than a 150 lb. man.

+1

The more you have to penetrate, the more likely the bullet is to be stopped or deflected - reducing the chance of the bullet hitting the vitals. Had Ronald Reagan been a skinnier guy, he might've been killed by Hinckley.

 

[-v-]

Also remember a lot of the gel data corresponds to relaxed muscle. The more muscle you have, and the better shape you are, the worse the penetration mechanics will be, since the bullet will have to pierce a much denser medium.

 

[skinewmexico]

I just can't believe that a body builder would be more bulletproof. I've seen little guys put them down in a bar fight, I don't know why a bullet would do less. By this kind of logic, a 270 that would kill a deer would fail to kill an elk, since it is so much stronger and muscular.

 

[jmr40]

I have long felt that this was an important topic that has not been considered enough. I agree with Skas when he states that no amount of physical conditioning will prevent someone from resisting blood loss. But a 300+ lb man is far more likely to prevent a bullet from reaching the vitals than a 150 lb man.

 

[Navy joe]

I'm sure it does have an impact on lethality. Shoot a 150lb guy in the chest and there is minimal tissue before ribs. Shoot a well conditioned person and the bullet may encounter several inches of muscle before the ribs which can be thicker and denser due to strength training and body type. Same with a through shot, if someone has massive upper arms will a bullet enter and exit an arm with enough energy to still penetrate the chest cavity? Additionally, a high level of fitness may aid in wound survival.

 

[CWL]

Shot placement, shot placement, shot placement.

As humans have grown in size, so has the design and velocity of bullets to match.

 

[Skas]

<< Skas, welcome to the forums. I hope we will hear more from you. >>

I appreciate that - thanks.

<< The difference we may have is in the amount of time needed for shock to set in. I tend to believe a large weight lifter may not go into instantaneous shock, thus possessing enough time to harm/kill his assailant before falling victim the wound. This is the point I am attempting to make. It seems to me a larger, well conditioned individual may retain the ability to fight for a brief period of time, long enough to shoot or club his assailant to death. Hopefully, these additional comments clearify my position. >>

Yes, they do. But I don't believe I would agree.

Short of a CNS hit, the object when shooting an attacker is to "tear a big hole," increasing the chances of massive blood loss and subsequent loss of consciousness, thereby stopping the attack. Assuming a COM (center-of-mass) hit, any injury of either the aorta or vena cava will likely result in a very quick and large blood loss, etc. And anywhere else within the highly-vascularized peritoneum will also result in major blood loss.

Now, if you're suggesting a hit somewhere in a ~relatively~ less-vascularized organ - say a major muscle group - I could see where a highly-conditioned athlete might be able to better withstand the hit, esp. if they were involved in contact sports. My only hesitation about this is that I think it's far more likely to be hit somewhere where blood loss will be the major kicker. I also believe that highly-conditioned athletes would be far more likely to have a better outcome - all thing being equal, which of course they never are - after either gunshot, other trauma, or illness. But I believe you were speaking of their response during a fight, not after.

I've personally worked with a number of gunshot victims, small and scrawny ones as well as big bruiser types. IMO, where they were hit mattered a lot more than their body size or muscularity. I remember one little guy who was hit from across a room by six .38s rds. He actually did ok, I guess - though he did lose almost complete use of his arm.

 

[boomstik45]

Who cares? Shoot until the threat is stopped. If you're close enough, shoot into the face, groin, or neck if at all possible. Regardless of muscle mass, these are areas of high sensitivity and greater damage potential. I'm a solidly built 300 lbs. and don't want to get hit by anything, not .22, not .32, not 9mm....etc.

 

[Wheeler44]

I have seen bullet wounds to large, fit persons up close and personal. The .44 mag. w/ hollow points went right through the feller. The .38 spl. w/ cast bullets, at the same distance, ....wait for it....went right through the other feller.

Timthinker; if you want to be bullet proof wear a vest.

If you need proof do like my buddy and I did when we were kids, get some pork ribs and some liver and a roast. Wrap the liver around the roast and the ribs around the whole package. Use rubber bands to hold it all together. Pick your favorite handgun and fire away. After that experiment I decided that I didn't want to get shot.

Wheeler44

 

[Timthinker]

Gentlemen, perhaps our dispute revolves around the word instantaneous. Let me provide an actual example of how I interpret this word. As a child, I was struck in the head with a ball and remember arising from the floor. That is instantaneous. Taking several seconds to succumb to blood loss may seem instantaneous, but it is not if you face an armed opponent. A famous-or infamous-example of this occured in a 1986 shootout the FBI had with two dangerous felons. One felon suffered a fatal gunshot wound to the heart, if memory serves me correctly, but survived long enough to return deadly fire to FBI agents. Seconds do matter.

The issue I raise does not make bodybuilders/strength trainers bulletproof. I merely wonder if their enhanced abilities buy a brief time, a few additional seconds, to "settle matters". This may seem like a disturbing thought, but it is the issue I have attempted to raise. I think we are closing the conceptual gap that seems to separate us on this matter.

Now let me open an additional can of worms. Is it posible that the .45 Colt
Peacemaker developed it reputation in part due to the smaller stature and physique of those wounded by it? Yes, the lack of modern surgical techniques and antibotics contributed to many deaths in the Old West. All of us agree on this point. But have the .45 Colt and .45 auto received better press than they really deserve? No doubt, the ghosts of Elmer Keith and Jeff Cooper may haunt me for this, but it is a question that begs an answer. Thanks for suffering me. I think I hear those ghosts rattling their chains.


Timthinker

 

[EmGeeGeorge]

...deleted

 

[S&W620]

I'm by no means an expert, but a lung shot, heart shot or shot to the CNS will probably have a similar effect on everyone.

 

[Maddock]

Timthinker -- Not long ago, I purchased a book on the American West that was filled with 19th century photographs. Looking at these photos, I noticed that both the settlers and natives seemed smaller in stature and physique than some fellow lifters I know.

There is no doubt that modern Americans are larger, stronger and healthier than those of the century before last (we are certainly heavier). A body-builder would have greater mass and more muscle requiring more penetration and may take slightly longer to exsanguinate than the typical American from the same wound profile.

Timthinker -- It seems to me a larger, well conditioned individual may retain the ability to fight for a brief period of time, long enough to shoot or club his assailant to death.

What modern Americans on the whole are not is more pain tolerant. I’m only 54, yet I can see the change just in my lifetime. If the bodybuilders you are speaking of have the discipline and experience of a few of the Power-Lifters of my acquaintance they may have developed some impressive pain tolerance. I know that pain is an unreliable and unpredictable mechanism for stopping, but I have seen it work and fail on more than a few occasions.

Timthinker -- Is it possible that the .45 Colt Peacemaker developed it reputation in part due to the smaller stature and physique of those wounded by it?

The big bore heavy slug at moderate velocity has been compared to the smaller, lighter high velocity slug for well over one hundred years, when the targets and the shooters were of comparable size. I believe that the concept is as valid now as in 1873.

 

[Skas]

<< Seconds do matter....I merely wonder if their enhanced abilities buy a brief time, a few additional seconds, to "settle matters". >>

I believe I understand you and your hypothesis. But I think we will continue to disagree. My only point is that blood loss from a major artery is very quick. And I may well be wrong, but IMO I can't imagine anyone sustaining a hit such as that and not going down like a stone and fast.

With respect to any potential benefit accruing from either size or conditioning, I would mention only that with an increase in size - and vascular supply - comes the need for an increased vascular supply. IOW, such individuals would have a commensurate loss in both blood and ability, regardless of size. In a sense, they "need" even more blood to maintain their function than would someone of smaller stature. And the conditioned individual nonetheless requires an improved supply of O2, ATP, etc. to maintain the advantages acquired from superior conditioning.

It would be an interesting expt., though I'm sure PETA would yell a lot. Take several groups of animals, some "normally" conditioned, some somewhat deprived of both exercise and nutritional status, and another highly exercised and well-fed. Shoot some of each group (with different calibers?) in highly-vascularized and relatively less-vascularized regions and observe their ability to, say, avoid an aversive stimulus (electric shock, a predator, an aggressive member of their own species, whatever).

<< Now let me open an additional can of worms. >>

Hell, you would.

<< Is it posible that the .45 Colt Peacemaker developed it reputation in part due to the smaller stature and physique of those wounded by it? Yes, the lack of modern surgical techniques and antibotics contributed to many deaths in the Old West. All of us agree on this point. But have the .45 Colt and .45 auto received better press than they really deserve? No doubt, the ghosts of Elmer Keith and Jeff Cooper may haunt me for this, but it is a question that begs an answer. Thanks for suffering me. I think I hear those ghosts rattling their chains. >>

Hey! I can hear them too.

Umm...I would say no, for all the reasons I've already mentioned.

 

[Guitargod1985]

I just can't believe that a body builder would be more bulletproof. I've seen little guys put them down in a bar fight, I don't know why a bullet would do less.

That's a simple function of velocity. BEcause a smaller person can be presumed to have less inertia, he/she has the potential to accelerate his/her fist/arm with greater speed. The mass is less, but velocity counts for much more. I believe it is FORCE = mass x velocity^2. This, in part is why someone the size of say, Bruce Lee, can take a 350 lb dude down.

However, muscle is a denser tissue than fat, as -v- poinmted out. Provided that a muscular person is hit in the same way with the same speed/grain bullet as a fat person of equal "thickness," it would stand to reason that the person of more muscular build would be physiologically less prone to vital(s) injury. In other words, I think it's feasible that AH-nold would be harder to take down than the lady from "WHat's Eating Gilbert Grape?" More than likely, though, it makes only a marginal difference.

EDIT:

There is no doubt that modern Americans are larger, stronger and healthier than those of the century before last (we are certainly heavier). A body-builder would have greater mass and more muscle requiring more penetration and may take slightly longer to exsanguinate than the typical American from the same wound profile.

Someone already beat me to it.

 

[Timthinker]

Skas, although we disagree, at least we disagree agreeably. Read about the 1986 FBI shootout in Miami and it may surprise you. The felons in that shootout received fatal wounds but kept on fighting. The FBI, never know for its sense of humor, said they were dying but not fast enough. It was that incident that caused the FBI to adopt the 10mm handgun. If you research various threads here, you will find amazing stories of individuals who sustained fatal wounds, but lived long enough to "settle matters". Incidents such as these led me to the views I have posted. Yes, these accounts are strange, but truth is often stranger than fiction.

You may wish to make use of our search feature which lists some seemingly incredible gunshot stories. Reading them certainly gives food for thought. Good luck and see you later.


Timthinker

 

[Wheeler44]

I noticed that both the settlers and natives seemed smaller in stature and physique than some fellow lifters I know. This started me to wonder if the vaunted Colt .45 "Peacemaker", which the book discussed, would prove as effective against modern men who have benefitted from better nutrition and muscle building exercises.

Timthinker says;

Well I dunno Tim, My Grampa was 6' 4" and over 250 lb. He won a beer one time by packin' a hundred pound sack o' flour up three flights of stairs, in his teeth. He was a mule skinner and he was as tough as shoe leather. He didn't lift weights unless he was gettin' paid for it and workin' muscles is tougher than liftin' muscles. Some of those old fellers back then did more work before breakfast than anybody these days do in a whole day.

Yeah some lifters have big muscles but they ain't as hard as some old sodbuster that walked out from Nebraska.

I ain't puttin' anybody down or anything but there is a real difference between "sculpted" muscles earned by workin' 3 sets of 12 reps and muscles earned by workin' a hand scythe 16 hours a day six or seven days a week.

And as I said in my earlier post even the lowly .38 spl. with home made cast bullets can go right through a big man.

 

[Timthinker]

Wheeler44, I did not go into this, but there is a difference between bodybuilders and strength trainers. I believe the latter group would surprise you with what they can accomplish. In fact, strength trainers develop muscles for use, not show.

Your Grandfather falls outside of the group to which I was referring. His height and build exclude him from the folks that appeared in the photos I mentioned earlier. Still, you make a valid point about the lack of physical effort many people exert today.

If you are interested in the topic of strength training, then PM me and I will direct you to some information that is amazing. It is based upon strength building measures used by old-time strongmen. I hope this information is interesting.


Timthinker

 

[Wheeler44]

Timthinker; if my personal trainer thought that I was cheating on him he might just shoot me. He is also my range buddy.