ARES raided!!
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berettaprofessor
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Isn't that the place that had a restraining order against them??? What happened to the order?
BREAKING: Ares Armor Raided by ATF
BREAKING: Ares Armor Raided by ATF
http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2014/03/daniel-zimmerman/breaking-ares-armor-raided-atf/
"Despite being granted a restraining order, the ATF has apparently raided San Diego area firearms parts seller Ares Armor anyway. Ares sells 80% lowers which the ATF has classified as “firearms.” The ATF has been pressuring Ares to turn over their sales records or lose them in a raid. Given the threats, earlier this week Ares moved for and was granted a restraining order against such a raid. But the above YouTube video appears to show ATF agents rummaging through Ares, apparently confiscating inventory and, you’d have to assume, their computers and customers records. This video is the only evidence we’ve been able to find of a raid so far. Stay tuned."
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BREAKING: Ares Armor Raided by ATF
http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2014/03/daniel-zimmerman/breaking-ares-armor-raided-atf/
"Despite being granted a restraining order, the ATF has apparently raided San Diego area firearms parts seller Ares Armor anyway. Ares sells 80% lowers which the ATF has classified as “firearms.” The ATF has been pressuring Ares to turn over their sales records or lose them in a raid. Given the threats, earlier this week Ares moved for and was granted a restraining order against such a raid. But the above YouTube video appears to show ATF agents rummaging through Ares, apparently confiscating inventory and, you’d have to assume, their computers and customers records. This video is the only evidence we’ve been able to find of a raid so far. Stay tuned."
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dprice3844444
member
ngnrd
Member
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6gsmlJSpWvk&feature=youtu.be
I guess the restraining order didn't mean much to the ATF.
I guess the restraining order didn't mean much to the ATF.
barnbwt
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Everyone involved always knew the RO was only a delaying measure; intended by ARES to get them time to take stock/photos, hire representation, get the word out, and come up with a game plan before the ATF got to make their move. Very unlikely the ATF will have the flexibility to play games or misconstrue (or manufacture) evidence with the world watching, now.
ATF first asked for a voluntary surrender, a date was worked out, they were rebuffed when they arrived (with no warrant, it being a voluntary surrender) by the RO, then requested and got approval from a judge to clarify the RO as not preventing them from investigating/seizing evidence. I think it mainly kept them from pulling an unannounced midnight raid, more than it actually kept them off the premises.
Mods may wish to combine the two threads on this matter...
The Youtube video would be a lot more insightful and chilling without the yelping fool in the background
"I thought this was 'Murica?" Me? I'd be reciting the ATF's claims, relevant NFA/GCA laws, prior ATF rulings/approval, and actually trying to inform the onlookers as to exactly what is happening and why the ATF is mistaken, and why the law they are enforcing is bunk in the first place. But yelping about the ATF kicking your doors down at night because you bought an EP lower holds a crowd so much better, even though it accomplishes nothing. I've not yet met anyone who thought more highly of our NFA/GCA laws after learning more about them. The surest path to making someone an activist is to get them involved in the building of firearms --works even better than taking people shooting.
TCB
ATF first asked for a voluntary surrender, a date was worked out, they were rebuffed when they arrived (with no warrant, it being a voluntary surrender) by the RO, then requested and got approval from a judge to clarify the RO as not preventing them from investigating/seizing evidence. I think it mainly kept them from pulling an unannounced midnight raid, more than it actually kept them off the premises.
Mods may wish to combine the two threads on this matter...
The Youtube video would be a lot more insightful and chilling without the yelping fool in the background
"I thought this was 'Murica?"
Me? I'd be reciting the ATF's claims, relevant NFA/GCA laws, prior ATF rulings/approval, and actually trying to inform the onlookers as to exactly what is happening and why the ATF is mistaken, and why the law they are enforcing is bunk in the first place. But yelping about the ATF kicking your doors down at night because you bought an EP lower holds a crowd so much better, even though it accomplishes nothing. I've not yet met anyone who thought more highly of our NFA/GCA laws after learning more about them. The surest path to making someone an activist is to get them involved in the building of firearms --works even better than taking people shooting.TCB
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barnbwt
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Just think; had ARES played the ATF's game, there would be no knowledge, no video, no awareness of this incident. We figured similar stuff would happen after EP was straight up raided and the owner handcuffed for a few hours, but it appears the ATF was trying to keep the secondary efforts quiet if possible and work with store owners to track down legal purchasers of legal goods.
Gun store owners and gun builders; you now know what to do if anyone comes asking about lowers. Stall if you can, get representation, and blow your story out on the airwaves as loud as possible. Document the infringement of your civil rights.
"They ALL seem to think they need only obey the laws with which they agree. If it's not the BATFE, it's the InFernal Revenue thugs."
The ATF is the IRS. They're both ostensibly tax collectors, and the exact kind of entities that broke us from England in the first place.
TCB
Gun store owners and gun builders; you now know what to do if anyone comes asking about lowers. Stall if you can, get representation, and blow your story out on the airwaves as loud as possible. Document the infringement of your civil rights.
"They ALL seem to think they need only obey the laws with which they agree. If it's not the BATFE, it's the InFernal Revenue thugs."
The ATF is the IRS. They're both ostensibly tax collectors, and the exact kind of entities that broke us from England in the first place.
TCB
larryh1108
Member
We already know that Obama and Eric Holder has no respect for the law. That's not opinion but fact. Then they hide behind executive privelage so they don't have to answer for it. So, nothing suprises me any more. Snowden only uncovered the tip of the iceberg.
nothing will be done about this, everyone is to lazy. There will be no marches or protests or even legal action. Our firearm rights are going to become a thing of the past legally. Because you cant play someone elses game when they are free to make and change the rules whenever they want
If Ares Armor were located in another state, say Arizona. Would this have still happened? I don't know..maybe not.
https://www.thefederalistpapers.org...e-in-jail-or-dead-before-that-sign-comes-down
“The Local Government of National City thinks it is acceptable to re-interpret their own city code to suite their political agenda if a message appears that does not suite their liking,”
https://www.thefederalistpapers.org...e-in-jail-or-dead-before-that-sign-comes-down
“The Local Government of National City thinks it is acceptable to re-interpret their own city code to suite their political agenda if a message appears that does not suite their liking,”
dogtown tom
Member
Since 2002 ATF has been an agency under the Justice Department, not Treasury.
Librarian
Member
It appears that ATF is saying, approximately, the (plastic) lowers were originally built/cast/manufactured to an almost-complete lower, then parts filled in to make them less-complete, and thus eligible for the '80%' treatment.
If that's accurate, That Is A Big Problem.
They say the Completed lower is made first and then they fill in the trigger pocket with Polymer.
Which just isn't the case. I have seen videos of these Lowers being milled out and it's very clear the trigger group polymer is the first step in the process and the Lower is molded around it effectively making the lower the last thing made.
Which just isn't the case. I have seen videos of these Lowers being milled out and it's very clear the trigger group polymer is the first step in the process and the Lower is molded around it effectively making the lower the last thing made.
There's only one way to stop this crap. People don't like hearing the truth, but the fact is, sitting back, letting them erode our rights and trample the constitution bit by bit will only play into their hands. Our forefathers knew this and a small minority, a very small minority spoke out and changed the course of the world. I am not advocating violence and never would, but there comes a point where we need to pledge our lives, our fortunes and our sacred honor.
Vote people. Vote them out in droves.
Vote people. Vote them out in droves.
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What I am reading into this is that it started with a dispute about the sign on the building. Reportedly the city told the owner to take the sign down even though the sign was grandfathered.
The owner said no and then allegedly someone from the city calls the ATF on the owner and here we are....
The owner said no and then allegedly someone from the city calls the ATF on the owner and here we are....
Sam1911
Moderator Emeritus
Ok, so hold on. First off, someone is going to have to define "non-violent armed resistance" for me.
Second, the crux of the issue here seems to be that the ATF is trying to work out whether the specific process Ares is using produces something that IS a firearm or is NOT a firearm. Like it or not, that kind of thing is in their power to decide, and if Ares was making "firearms," not firearm-like paperweights, (under the ATF's determination) then they've been breaking federal law, selling them without proper transfer. Maybe inadvertently, maybe not, maybe the ATF has changed their minds and reversed themselves. Lots of possibilities.
Either way, as distressing as this might sound, I do not think this is our "Mama, put on your helmet" moment. This would be closer to the Akins Accelerator issue from some years back. A big pain in the neck for those involved, and possibly worse, but I don't see the gross misbehavior others are decrying.
I'd rather they let these folks be, but I'm not at all surprised that this is happening, and it doesn't seem to point to some massive gun registration effort.
If this maker has been selling something the ATF now says are firearms, without the 4473, then the ATF needs to know where all those went.
Second, the crux of the issue here seems to be that the ATF is trying to work out whether the specific process Ares is using produces something that IS a firearm or is NOT a firearm. Like it or not, that kind of thing is in their power to decide, and if Ares was making "firearms," not firearm-like paperweights, (under the ATF's determination) then they've been breaking federal law, selling them without proper transfer. Maybe inadvertently, maybe not, maybe the ATF has changed their minds and reversed themselves. Lots of possibilities.
Either way, as distressing as this might sound, I do not think this is our "Mama, put on your helmet" moment. This would be closer to the Akins Accelerator issue from some years back. A big pain in the neck for those involved, and possibly worse, but I don't see the gross misbehavior others are decrying.
I'd rather they let these folks be, but I'm not at all surprised that this is happening, and it doesn't seem to point to some massive gun registration effort.
If this maker has been selling something the ATF now says are firearms, without the 4473, then the ATF needs to know where all those went.
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larryh1108
Member
Sam, I am sure you are right. Does the fact that they "suspect" they "may be" selling illegal firearms give them the right to seize the records of all buyers? I can see it if they find them to be illegal but it seems like they haven't ruled on that yet. It seems the outrage is for the BATF demanding the sales records.
Sam1911
Moderator Emeritus
Well, yes it probably does. Maybe. The judge will have to decide that. If the ATF says these are firearms, they have to go get them. (And will almost certainly do so pretty peaceably as with the Akins situation.)
As much as it would make all of us grin, if they discover that Ares burned all the records or whatever, that would be a problem.
And, if they're to the point of confiscating inventory and records, I rather doubt they haven't already made an official finding about these. Unfortunately, they get to make that decision, and investigate, and enforce.
As much as it would make all of us grin, if they discover that Ares burned all the records or whatever, that would be a problem.
And, if they're to the point of confiscating inventory and records, I rather doubt they haven't already made an official finding about these. Unfortunately, they get to make that decision, and investigate, and enforce.
dogtown tom
Member
Anyone remember the outcry over ATF raiding Cavalry Arms?
Anyone remember the outcome?
I do.
Anyone remember the outcome?
I do.
Twmaster
Member
Sam, just a small correction. Ares does not make that lower.
EP Armory makes the lower. Also note EP was raided on Friday, March 7th.
http://www.examiner.com/article/atf-raids-80-complete-receiver-manufacturer-looking-for-illegal-guns
barnbwt
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"Second, the crux of the issue here seems to be that the ATF is trying to work out whether the specific process Ares is using produces something that IS a firearm or is NOT a firearm. Like it or not, that kind of thing is in their power to decide, and if Ares was making "firearms," not firearm-like paperweights, (under the ATF's determination) then they've been breaking federal law, selling them without proper transfer. Maybe inadvertently, maybe not, maybe the ATF has changed their minds and reversed themselves. Lots of possibilities."
1) History has shown repeatedly that a raid/focus like this is the death of a business (EP is surely dead, ARES may follow) since the entire inventory is destroyed without compensation (I've never quite understood how that passes Constitutional muster, but I guess corporations have no rights despite being people)
2) In this particular case, the ATF is knowingly pursuing the raid/investigation under false pretenses. The plug is keyed into the FCG pocket casting, thus it had to come first, else the lower would still be stuck in the mould
3) We have been shown the kind of back-alley tactics the ATF uses to strong arm businesses into compliance (remember the bit about them scanning bound books, with intimidated FFLs afraid to say anything?), threatening raids (violence) and charges (monetary/freedom loss) unless their dubious demands are met.
The ATF can surely reverse their policies, they do have that power. But they need to exercise it properly. Just because one of their agents wrote an opinion deciding the 80% are illegal based on a mistake, does not give them carte blanche to harass and terrorize store owners, nor their customers. If the ATF really wants to do this the right way, they will issue new guidelines, send out the information to 80% manufacturers along with a cease-and-desist to stop new production, and set up an amnesty period in which owners of these lowers and 80% can have them recorded and dispositioned. If a seller keeps selling the then-illegal item, or a builder retains possession of the then-contraband, then they will be in trouble.
There has been zero effort on the part of the ATF to accommodate the glaring commonality/ubiquity of these long-accepted items widely in circulation. I seriously think we need to organize a nation wide response to this action in CA, since this kind of arrogance is something new, even for the ATF. At least open-bolt guns are easily convertible to full auto, the original PPSH demils could be fired unrepaired, and entering thousands of MAC serial numbers into a bound book ahead of the MG registry closure is pretty shady. There is no "constructive" difference between an EP 80% lower, an AR15 poly lower, and an M16 full auto lower --and yet EP is only being sought for the AR15 charge and not the more serious one.
Builders have been wondering for a while when the administration would make its move. I wonder if any pre-templated receiver kit is next.
TCB
1) History has shown repeatedly that a raid/focus like this is the death of a business (EP is surely dead, ARES may follow) since the entire inventory is destroyed without compensation (I've never quite understood how that passes Constitutional muster, but I guess corporations have no rights despite being people)
2) In this particular case, the ATF is knowingly pursuing the raid/investigation under false pretenses. The plug is keyed into the FCG pocket casting, thus it had to come first, else the lower would still be stuck in the mould
3) We have been shown the kind of back-alley tactics the ATF uses to strong arm businesses into compliance (remember the bit about them scanning bound books, with intimidated FFLs afraid to say anything?), threatening raids (violence) and charges (monetary/freedom loss) unless their dubious demands are met.
The ATF can surely reverse their policies, they do have that power. But they need to exercise it properly. Just because one of their agents wrote an opinion deciding the 80% are illegal based on a mistake, does not give them carte blanche to harass and terrorize store owners, nor their customers. If the ATF really wants to do this the right way, they will issue new guidelines, send out the information to 80% manufacturers along with a cease-and-desist to stop new production, and set up an amnesty period in which owners of these lowers and 80% can have them recorded and dispositioned. If a seller keeps selling the then-illegal item, or a builder retains possession of the then-contraband, then they will be in trouble.
There has been zero effort on the part of the ATF to accommodate the glaring commonality/ubiquity of these long-accepted items widely in circulation. I seriously think we need to organize a nation wide response to this action in CA, since this kind of arrogance is something new, even for the ATF. At least open-bolt guns are easily convertible to full auto, the original PPSH demils could be fired unrepaired, and entering thousands of MAC serial numbers into a bound book ahead of the MG registry closure is pretty shady. There is no "constructive" difference between an EP 80% lower, an AR15 poly lower, and an M16 full auto lower --and yet EP is only being sought for the AR15 charge and not the more serious one.
Builders have been wondering for a while when the administration would make its move. I wonder if any pre-templated receiver kit is next.
TCB
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