ARES raided!!

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Yesterday, it was common knowledge that an 80% lower that didn't have the pin holes, the spaces for the FCG, and the slot for the trigger machined out wasn't a "firearm" under federal law.

Federal law does define an "80 percent" lower. Neither does the BATFE.

If a machine shop wants to sell an "80 percent" lower a copy should be sent to the BATFE Technology Branch. The BATFE will rule the proposed "80 percent" lower is either legal or illegal. The BATFE will not divulge their criteria for such rulings.

Those who manufacture and sell what they think are "80 percent" lowers are asking for trouble from the BATFE.
 
One thing I haven't heard is whether EP (and/or ARES, I guess) ever sent one of their theoretically "80%" lowers to the Tech Branch for a declaration of whether it constituted, legally, a firearm or not. I know the ATF is known for reversing their opinions, but that would give these guys much more of a leg to stand on in protesting these actions.

If they just came up with something they thought was "80%-ish" and started making/selling them, it might not be very surprising that they're getting this negative attention.
 
^ wondering if they are the ones who supplied the Santa Monica shooter. Hence the push for "Ghost Guns" in CA..
 
One thing I haven't heard is whether EP (and/or ARES, I guess) ever sent one of their theoretically "80%" lowers to the Tech Branch for a declaration of whether it constituted, legally, a firearm or not. I know the ATF is known for reversing their opinions, but that would give these guys much more of a leg to stand on in protesting these actions.

If they just came up with something they thought was "80%-ish" and started making/selling them, it might not be very surprising that they're getting this negative attention.

That's a good question whether they've been previously given the green light by the ATF Tech branch.

I've never seen one of the EP Armory lowers in person but a close friend has one and mentioned there are marks for drill locations on the the thing.

I've heard it said that sort of thing was a no-no. (Or at least the Internet Lore said so)
 
We will probably never see EP's approval letter (trade secrets and whatnot keeps them out of public eyes for the most part) but their process/design was approved at one point (and probably was last week, too). The ATF is arguing they have reason to believe --probably based on something they read on the internet, by all accounts :rolleyes:--EP changed its process, and thus was no longer abiding by the approved design. What's funny, is that I've never heard of manufacturing processes being a focus of determination letters for non-firearms, just end products (semi conversions of full-auto parts kits are different, and care must be taken to install so called 'denial features' that prevent eventual full auto capability before the firearm is reactivated, which often requires a certain order of manufacturing operations)

Whether the raid was ATF seeing a legal opening to go after EP (which seems the likely case) or if the supposed process deviation really did magically create then un-create a finished lower (physically impossible), EP no longer had even the semblance of protection against ATF action. The approval letters aren't legally binding or protecting, but they show very strong good faith and willingness on the part of the offender to abide by the law, so a judge/jury would have a very hard time buying a prosecution's arguments of malicious/nefarious intent. Since EP violated that good faith by allegedly modifying their process, it became easier for the ATF to say they were trying to weasel around or violate the law instead of trying to follow ATF guidelines.

TCB
 
... reason to believe...EP changed its process, and thus was no longer abiding by the approved design. What's funny, is that I've never heard of manufacturing processes being a focus of determination letters for non-firearms, just end products (semi conversions of full-auto parts kits are different,

ATF may have determined that there is a significant difference between making something this isn't a firearm, and possibly making something that fits the definition of a firearm and then deactivating it and selling it as something that never was a firearm. But as you say, we may never know, unless it goes to court
 
I have a friend in Calif. that sent me the YouTube film. The batf arrived with a locksmith, who opened the doors, then helped them open the safe inside, sledgehammer in hand.
 
They are getting this attention because BATFE tried to strong arm their customer list and Ares refused to comply without a court order.
 
They are getting this attention because BATFE tried to strong arm their customer list and Ares refused to comply without a court order.
But that doesn't seem to be the beginning of the story. Yes, if the BATFE determines these are FIREARMS, that were sold illegally, then they need the customer lists because they have to track those unlawfully sold firearms down and confiscate them. If they're illegally sold, the ATF can't just let them go. They won't prosecute the owners (probably won't compensate them either...) but they do have to go get them back.

Hence, they need the list of who bought one. ARES is saying, "not until you prove your claims," or words to that effect, but I'm not sure they have a leg to stand on. We'll see.
 
What other companies other than Ares are making these "80% lowers" ?

Have the ATF gone after those other companies too?

Or is Ares just being singled out?

I am under the impression that this all started with the complaint about that Ares sign by the city council and it all just escalated from there. If Ares was located say in Arizona instead of California. Would the outcome still be the same?
 
What other companies other than Ares are making these "80% lowers" ?
ARES doesn't make them. EP Armory does. ARES was selling them for EP.

These are a unique version of the "80% receiver" concept. A "jigless" easy-to-complete polymer version that the BATFE is saying is too close to complete to be sold as not a firearm.

See here: http://www.eparmory.com/Lower-Receivers-s/1819.htm

Have the ATF gone after those other companies too?
The BATFE has indeed stopped other companies who made receivers they deemed to be too close to a complete firearm to sell without the 4473 transfer.

Or is Ares just being singled out?
ARES is a retailer who had/has/sold(?) 6,000 or so of the EP lowers. They're involved because the ATF is trying to track down and confiscate these (what they've determined to be, legally) firearms which were transferred incorrectly. ARES is refusing to hand over the names of their customers, claiming the ATF is wrong and these aren't firearms. Since the ATF gets to make the call on whether they are or aren't, I'm not sure what leg ARES is going to stand on.

I am under the impression that this all started with the complaint about that Ares sign by the city council and it all just escalated from there.
That seems a bit of a stretch, to me. I've no doubt they had a beef with the city council. Now the maker of a type of lower that they happen to sell has run afoul of the ATF and ARES is claiming that the city council is mad and has called the ATF on them. Is that really true? Meh. Maybe. Seems to me that the ATF's issue is with EP, and ARES is making it "their" issue as well rather than comply with the ATF.

Without knowing more about the whole situation, the city council angle seems like a red herring. The city council didn't make EP lower receivers too close to complete for the BATFE's approval.

If Ares was located say in Arizona instead of California. Would the outcome still be the same?
Again, seeing as it really isn't ARES's problem, I don't know how that matters. I don't know how many retailers EP sold their "too close for comfort" receivers to, and whether the ATF has gotten compliance from those retailers in tracking down the sold units or not.
 
There is a video online of what it takes to finish these lowers I could clearly see the sequence that the poly lowers were cast from the video and they were not finished and plugged but they were manufactured in layers and to do the work more easily the company used black and white layers. The guy doing the work has done them before so he knows how to do it and exactly what tools to use. It takes him an hour. I have also seen inferences that some folks were having build parties where folks would get together and help each other with the machineing which I see as no big deal. I find it odd that the BATFE only went after the poyimer lowers instead of the aluminum as it is the same process but you use a jig.

In the complaint supposedly BATFE came to ARES and said to them if you give us your customer list without us having to get a warrant we will not prosecute you. Would any one of you that has a customer base surrender your customer information without a warrant?

If you follow the online gun guys you should have heard of nutnfancy. It was he that presented the online/on phone interview with ARES.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NBVzsfF_wIM
 
The guy doing the work has done them before so he knows how to do it and exactly what tools to use. It takes him an hour. I have also seen inferences that some folks were having build parties where folks would get together and help each other with the machineing which I see as no big deal. I find it odd that the BATFE only went after the poyimer lowers instead of the aluminum as it is the same process but you use a jig.
Part of how the ATF seems to make the so-called "80%" determination is in how much work it takes to finish the receiver. If you don't have to use a jig and can convert the hunk o' polymer into a working lower in one hour, I can certainly see why the ATF would consider that you're closer to the line than they're comfortable with.

Remember, they aren't saying these are illegal guns or that you can't have one. They're merely saying if you're going to manufacture and sell this, it needs to transfer as a legal firearm.

I'm all for cheap and easy work-arounds to the GCA'68 -- the more the better, until we can get it struck down! -- but this is a matter of pushing the line about as hard as possible, then acting surprised when the agency that makes these determinations says you went too far.

In the complaint supposedly BATFE came to ARES and said to them if you give us your customer list without us having to get a warrant we will not prosecute you. Would any one of you that has a customer base surrender your customer information without a warrant?
We'd all like to shout "NO!" but that's exactly the sort of deal that's made all the time. ARES was selling these, assuming that EP had their ducks in a row. ARES now finds out they've been illegally selling firearms without a license, and without filling out the paperwork. The BATFE says, essentially, "look, you didn't know, so we aren't going to nail you for these illegal sales, but we need to know where those things went so we can go get them back."

ARES could say, "Oh, shoot, sorry, we didn't know. Here's the list of folks who bought them."

But instead they say they won't give up that info without a fight. From their point of view, doing so would be selling out customers who really wanted "unpapered" guns, so they could stay "off the radar" or whatever, and now are going to get a phone call from the BATFE. That's going to make those "off the radar" types pretty mad. By "standing up" to the BATFE, ARES can at least look like they tried to protect their privacy-valuing customers.

It's a risky game, though, because if the ATF takes that saving-face move in a negative way, ARES could lose hundreds of thousands in legal fees -- or maybe even worse -- regardless of how unlikely it is that they'd be convicted for the illegal sales.
 
"ARES is refusing to hand over the names of their customers, claiming the ATF is wrong and these aren't firearms. Since the ATF gets to make the call on whether they are or aren't, I'm not sure what leg ARES is going to stand on."

That the ATF knowingly lied to courts/their agents in order to obtain the warrant to raid EP. They can define the end product or its process as a firearm all day long, but they can't lie about it to do so; their has to be some sort of justification (while they aren't required to define what makes an AR lower, when samples are rejected as firearms, they are required to state why they found that to be the case, so corrections can be made before resubmission.) You still have to be informed of the charges against you in this country, and actually have some evidence of committing them, to be prosecuted (let alone raided).

There has been zero, again, zero, evidence from the end user's products of EP that their castings could physically be made as lowers before a plug is inserted. There is mechanical interference in the FCG pocket that would prevent a completed lower from being removed from the mould. The charges are akin to the ATF claiming a billet of bar stock you milled into an 80% was first cast as a complete lower (again, this is physically impossible), then melted down and cast into the 80%. And that somehow the re-casting process does not remove the designation of 'firearm' from the finished article.

Frankly, even if the 80% were once functional firearms (there is no law against personal manufacture, so long as sale is not the purpose), once they are rendered inoperative (and cannot be sold as firearms), they are no longer subject to GCA rules. The fact the EP plug material is bonded to and inseparable from the secondary "lower" layer, makes it about as inoperative as you could ask for (which the ATF did, and received from EP in the first place.) There is no requirement they be utterly 'destroyed' per ATF reqs like machine gun receivers, because in the last 80 years, 'once a receiver, always a receiver' has never been the ATF's guidance --why now? Because they don't require jigs to make? Neither does a STEN receiver with a template glued/etched into it. And again, there is a very strong legal/technical argument to be made that injecting an identical plastic into a functional reinforced plastic receiver would constitute "destruction" in the first place.

ATF's arbitrary and illogical rules already forced EP to be very thorough when it came to ensuring their product could not be construed as a firearm. Even the ATF was unable to construe it as a firearm. That is why there are such good arguments against their action here, and such outrage. What we have is a a citizen who asked a police officer if they could use the crosswalk, waited until he said they could, made sure not to deviate from the crosswalk, and was ticketed by a different officer on the other side of the street for J-walking (which is actually defined as crossing an intersection illegally --hence the "J")

" sten%20m%205%20blank.jpg "
An 80% STEN receiver --piece of pipe-- is identical in process to an EP lower, just made from a different material. Even if the template is etched, so it is part of the tube like the EP lower, it remains incomplete by ATF standards.

"Part of how the ATF seems to make the so-called "80%" determination is in how much work it takes to finish the receiver. If you don't have to use a jig and can convert the hunk o' polymer into a working lower in one hour, I can certainly see why the ATF would consider that you're closer to the line than they're comfortable with."
The last time ATF tried issuing guidelines like that, it was "8 hours in a furnished machine shop." They were forced to go back on that, since that kind of abuse of regulatory scope would basically cover all tubing, sheet metal, and billet (if CNC or trained mill-workers were present). Once more, the real root of the problem is the ATF's broad discretion on the matter in the first place. Congress has had 80 years to think about how they would like this industry regulated; it's high time the regulations were codified into law (for good or ill) so they could be nailed down.

TCB
 
What we have is a a citizen who asked a police officer if they could use the crosswalk, waited until he said they could, made sure not to deviate from the crosswalk, and was ticketed by a different officer on the other side of the street for J-walking...
Well, that is something I asked before. Did EP get a determination letter on these before making and selling them? It sounds like they did, from your account, which would bolster their case.

You still have to be informed of the charges against you in this country, and actually have some evidence of committing them, to be prosecuted (let alone raided).
Well, now, that doesn't seem to be exactly so. I don't think many drug dealers are sent a notice about the charges they're facing before they are raided. :)

And I'm not sure that I've seen that EP (or ARES) IS being charged with anything, and certainly hasn't been prosecuted (yet?). Are they? It sounds like the ATF has (possibly) reversed a decision (which they are known to do, not that this is a good thing) and now will not allow these to be made/sold as they are. ARES and EP can take them to court to try and get their technical re-definition reversed, probably, though I don't know if that is ever successful, and would possibly be due the return of receivers taken into custody (or compensated for those destroyed) if they win.

And, if this IS the new interpretation ... whatever the key issue seems to be ... I'm sure the home gun building community will take careful note to try to apply the new logic to their builds. The next letter may say that STEN pipe receivers that come with all the drill holes etched into them are now legally firearms and can't be sold. The ATF can do that if they decide to. It sucks, but there's not a whole lot we can do about it except complain, or try to mount a case.
 
While 80% isn't an official term, it does lend some insight into the rationale of how much work needs to remain on the part in order to consider it "owner produced".
Once the equipment is set up and they are ready to churn out a boat load of "80%" aluminum lowers, consider the amount of work it takes to get a aluminum forging to that "80%" stage. Then consider the percentage of additional time/labor/work it would take for an average person to take it to the final functional form.

Then consider this rationale for a polymer lower. The parts are cast/injected. It takes very little time for this to happen. It requires much less time/labor/work to bring it to the 80% stage as compared to a metal lower. While it takes less time to perform the remaining "20%" It appears the percentage of overall work involved it bringing the part to the functional stage is actually greater that that required to do the same to an aluminum part.

It really isn't a matter of how easy it is to complete the work required. It's about the overall percentages. I think the Sten tube is a great example for comparison purposes once this gets to court.
 
To be honest, I'm not quite sure if there IS anything that can be done in court about this. I mean, if ARES and/or EP ends up charged and prosecuted, sure they'll have to hammer out all these technical details in order to get (or prevent?) a conviction.

However, if the BATFE doesn't charge them, merely issues a "cease and desist" notice, confiscates the inventory, and tracks down the units that were sold, what comes next?

The BATFE probably really doesn't want to have to have their "(We never said) 80%" rule put through the scrutiny of a lengthy court process, as that might eventually cause some sort of change in how much leeway they have in "regulating" the aspects of the law that are within their power currently.

On the other hand, it is unlikely that EP/ARES can sustain the (probably) decade-long process of legal challenge and appeal which it would take to push the issue to a final conclusion (seeing which would never be a guarantee anyway).

I suppose, assuming no prosecution is forthcoming, EP/ARES can bring suit against the BATFE for the return of their property, thus forcing a decision about whether the BATFE can simply decide these are firearms or not, but I really don't know how that would even work.

Anyone know exactly what recourse they would have?
 
I'm not an AR owner. Someone fill me on the 80% lower thing. I understand that if I wanted to build my own AR I could buy all of the parts seperately and assemble the rifle. I would have to have a lower (receiver) which carries the SN and is registered as a firearm. What is the advantage of buying an 80% lower? If you are a builder of lowers why would you not have to have a FFL and register everyone when it is manufactured, 10%, 80% or 100%?

Are these guys selling lowers that haven't been registered without a FFL?

I'm not taking sides here, just need to understand a few things. I haven't been a huge fan of the ATF since Ruby Ridge. Most probably don't remember that.
 
To follow up:

The core issue here really boils down to "Does the BATFE have the right to declare SOMETHING to be a firearm, and thus regulate its sale?" And if so, are there any limits to what that SOMETHING is, looks like, or does? And, does an official finding (letter) by them have to be binding on them to ensure the security of a company or individual in following their edicts?

If the answer to the question is YES -- and it has long been so, as a regulatory function under the law -- then it would seem they are completely within their mandate to act as they are acting.

So if there is a legal challenge to this action, it appears to me that such a challenge will have to force a court to answer that NO the BATFE CANNOT make this declaration under its mandate.

That appears to me to be a long set of odds to hope for.
 
Arbitrary and Capricious. Equal protection. Taking of property. Just a few to start. Yes, it's a court battle. Will they have enough cash for this? Will it pay off later?

Was the real reason for this raid to cause a chilling effect? According the radio interview, they are open for business as usual. How many people will be willing to purchase one of these lowers given the prospect of a BATFE raid on themselves because the government can get the list of names?
 
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The core issue here really boils down to "Does the BATFE have the right to declare SOMETHING to be a firearm, and thus regulate its sale?" And if so, are there any limits to what that SOMETHING is, looks like, or does? And, does an official finding (letter) by them have to be binding on them to ensure the security of a company or individual in following their edicts?

Exactly we need it written in stone what a gun is. It shouldn't be decided on the whim of a political appointee.
 
What is the advantage of buying an 80% lower? If you are a builder of lowers why would you not have to have a FFL and register everyone when it is manufactured, 10%, 80% or 100%?

Are these guys selling lowers that haven't been registered without a FFL?
At some point in the manufacturing process you have some Aluminum, maybe a raw casting that looks a little bit like an AR-15 lower receiver, but can't work like one and is more or less just a paperweight. At the end of the process, you have a working lower receiver which must have a serial number and be transferred as a "firearm."

The ATF has been approached by numerous makers of AR-15 receivers and asked where in the manufacturing process they could stop, and still sell the uncompleted chunk of aluminum as just a chunk of aluminum -- NOT a firearm, having to be transferred on a 4473 form. The ATF has sent out a number of letters approving this or that version of an incomplete receiver as NOT a firearm. Maybe some of the pin holes aren't drilled. Maybe the firing control group void isn't machined out. But the really HARD parts (casting, complex milling, anodizing the exterior, etc.) are all done.

That lets makers sell these things through the mail, to anyone, anywhere they want. The final buyer can, if s/he is so skilled and has the tools, then finish the last milling steps and turn the incomplete chunk of aluminum into a working firearm.

As a private individual, "making" a firearm this way means you don't have to pay transfer fees, the manufacturer's price for the incomplete chunk is lower than for a finished receiver, there is no form 4473 sitting in some dealer's folder with your name on it, and no serial number in the manufacturer's files that could be traced back to you. An "unpapered" but perfectly legal gun.

Considering that most of us would prefer that guns were not easily tracked down by "the gubmint," the UN Blue Helmets, the Chinese, space aliens, or whomever, the idea of a legal gun without any paper trail is pretty appealing.
 
I'm not an AR owner. Someone fill me on the 80% lower thing. I understand that if I wanted to build my own AR I could buy all of the parts seperately and assemble the rifle. I would have to have a lower (receiver) which carries the SN and is registered as a firearm. What is the advantage of buying an 80% lower? If you are a builder of lowers why would you not have to have a FFL and register everyone when it is manufactured, 10%, 80% or 100%?

Are these guys selling lowers that haven't been registered without a FFL?

I'm not taking sides here, just need to understand a few things. I haven't been a huge fan of the ATF since Ruby Ridge. Most probably don't remember that.
An 80% lower it's one that is not completely milled out. Because they are not complete they can be purchased without a serial number and without the transfer as they are not classified as a firearm. A person who buys one and has the wherewithal to complete the milling process would then have a functional receiver with no paper on it.
 
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