ARES raided!!

[Frank Ettin]

I still wonder why the question hasn't been asked to politicians across the country.. By media and or constituents in local meetings.
HOW much more do they think the American population is going to take ?...

The majority of the public would be aghast to discover that someone down the street could legally, without a license, build in his garage a semi-automatic rifle. Most people would think it's a great idea for ATF to put a stop to that.

 

[Midwest]

The majority of the public would be aghast to discover that someone down the street could legally, without a license, build in his garage a semi-automatic rifle. Most people would think it's a great idea for ATF to put a stop to that.

Kinda surprised that the Brady Bunch, Bloomie and Di-Fi haven't made this an issue yet. Although some politician in California mentioned "Ghost Guns" and legislation for it.

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/201...oposal-seeks-to-regulate-homemade-ghost-guns/

.

 

[JRH6856]

The majority of the public would be aghast to discover that someone down the street could legally, without a license, build in his garage a semi-automatic rifle. Most people would think it's a great idea for ATF to put a stop to that.

And that is the unfortunate truth that all too many of us don't want to accept. We (responsible gun owners) are a minority. Perhaps a fairly large and growing minority with some political power, but still a minority. We have a log way to go.

 

[CoalTrain49]

Kinda surprised that the Brady Bunch, Bloomie and Di-Fi haven't made this an issue yet. Although some politician in California mentioned "Ghost Guns" and legislation for it.

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/201...oposal-seeks-to-regulate-homemade-ghost-guns/

.

Reporter
How many ghost guns are there?

ATF
We aren't sure.

Reporter
How is that possible?

ATF
Courts made us adhere to the regulations. It's legal.

Reporterr
Since when has the ATF played by the rules? Are you loosing your touch?

ATF
Most of our agents are getting close to retirement. This is a stressful job and our pensions are important to us. Look what they tried to do to Eric and Lanny. I don't think congress is fooling around anymore. Besides, we dropped 2000 AR's in Mexico and no one got hurt. Well, maybe a few people but we had good intentions. Things just got a little out of hand. I think we are going to let the states handle this ghost gun thing. We have a lot on our plate with all the tobacco and alcohol too.

Reporter
You have explosives to deal with too don't you?

ATF
Yes, don't remind me. I need a vacation.

Reporter
I hear Acapulco is nice.

ATF
Yes, very nice. But I don't think it's safe down there right now.

 

[MrMarty51]

Everyone in here, call or email Your congresspersons, tell them, hands off the 80s.
Try and get Your friends to do the same, get the ball a rolling.
Thats all.

 

[barnbwt]

"Do you really think the American public cares about 80% lowers and the right to build your own rifle without paperwork? Very few gun owners even care about it let alone the general population."

Boy, does that ever sound familiar (well, I was actually too young to remember Fudds bleating during the AWB in '94 and before, but I hear it sounded like this ). That is the aspect of this whole deal that irks me the most; that a great many lawful gun owners out there view the lawful practice of free citizens lawfully constructing firearms as "shady." Just like the Fudds did all those black rifles only suitable for 'paranoid militia types.' I occasionally suggest we add a "builders" subforum to Gunsmithing for this reason (building is more gunsmithing than is drifting a sight blade, yet you almost never see posts on it, despite entire other forums being devoted to it)

"Why do you need to build your own gun anyway? I can buy the ones I want already?"

TCB

 

[Field Tester]

Coal, I laughed.

 

[barnbwt]

"Everyone in here, call or email Your congresspersons, tell them, hands off the 80s.
Try and get Your friends to do the same, get the ball a rolling.
Thats all."

Sadly, I think this issue is a bit too technical and complicated for a simple letter to a congress critter. The kind that actually get read. I think this is more one of those things they really need a dedicated and knowledgeable think tank holding their hands on, if we can hope to get some decent legislation out of them at the end of the day (at this point I think a legislative fix to NFA/GCA/ATF mandate is what's needed rather than a court settlement or executive order). Pro gun or anti, I would actually be quite content for the legislation to at least make logical sense, for a change

Does anybody know if there is an organization out there actively lobbying for real pro-gun reform that seeks to dramatically change the manner in which these items are regulated? All I can find is anti-BGC's, anti-registration, anti-bans, anti-carry laws, and the like --puny little special issues compared to the principles upon which all the gun regulatory authority is founded.

We can yell "lay off the 80%'s" but;
a) congress doesn't know what those are,
b) "80%'s" aren't defined legally anyway, so protecting them is impossible, and
c) from the reverse argument, we really can't expect congress or the ATF to allow receivers to be made unregulated right up to the very instant they become functional guns (stripped lowers would be non-guns until assembled in such a case)

A knee jerk got us into this mess, I don't think one will get us out (and let's admit it, 98% of the attention the ARES raid is getting is pure knee-jerk "I don't trust them G-men" nonsense that never accomplishes anything).

TCB

 

[JSH1]

"Do you really think the American public cares about 80% lowers and the right to build your own rifle without paperwork? Very few gun owners even care about it let alone the general population."

Boy, does that ever sound familiar (well, I was actually too young to remember Fudds bleating during the AWB in '94 and before, but I hear it sounded like this ). That is the aspect of this whole deal that irks me the most; that a great many lawful gun owners out there view the lawful practice of free citizens lawfully constructing firearms as "shady." Just like the Fudds did all those black rifles only suitable for 'paranoid militia types.' I occasionally suggest we add a "builders" subforum to Gunsmithing for this reason (building is more gunsmithing than is drifting a sight blade, yet you almost never see posts on it, despite entire other forums being devoted to it)

Quite a few of my co-workers own guns. I shoot with 6 of them, 3 of which own an AR or AK. NONE of them had heard about the ARES case or even knew about 80% lowers. They knew about building AK's and AR's from kits but didn't know that you could buy an unfinished lower and build a gun without paperwork. I guess that makes them all FUDDs.

I'll up the ante: The majority of gun owners don't know about 80% lowers.

 

[CoalTrain49]

Quite a few of my co-workers own guns. I shoot with 6 of them, 3 of which own an AR or AK. NONE of them had heard about the ARES case or even knew about 80% lowers. They knew about building AK's and AR's from kits but didn't know that you could buy an unfinished lower and build a gun without paperwork. I guess that makes them all FUDDs.

I'll up the ante: The majority of gun owners don't know about 80% lowers.

I didn't know about it but I don't have an AR. I guess I'm a fudd.

 

[goon]

Quite a few of my co-workers own guns. I shoot with 6 of them, 3 of which own an AR or AK. NONE of them had heard about the ARES case or even knew about 80% lowers. They knew about building AK's and AR's from kits but didn't know that you could buy an unfinished lower and build a gun without paperwork. I guess that makes them all FUDDs.

I'll up the ante: The majority of gun owners don't know about 80% lowers.

Probably true. I knew someone who had an AR-15 damaged in a snow machine accident who didn't know that he could buy another lower and basically transport all of his parts to rebuild his rifle. He's a pretty hands-on sort, and if I'd thought of it at the time, I could have turned him onto an 80% lower. As much as I like the guy, I may have even bought one for him.

 

[Field Tester]

Quite a few of my co-workers own guns. I shoot with 6 of them, 3 of which own an AR or AK. NONE of them had heard about the ARES case or even knew about 80% lowers. They knew about building AK's and AR's from kits but didn't know that you could buy an unfinished lower and build a gun without paperwork. I guess that makes them all FUDDs.

I'll up the ante: The majority of gun owners don't know about 80% lowers.

You're missing his point. Go back and reread what he's actually saying.

 

[BluewaterLa]

Frank, while I agree with you that most people wouldn't care about 80 percent receivers or would think its a bad thing that people can build a fire arm in their garage. I still see that as a part or the problem with citizens in general and a government that loves a vulgar display of power and authority, most of which violates our rights and constitution. I can see where the incomplete receivers with no sn are getting negative attention and I also don't agree with the way it's unfolding. This one case is complicated beyond most understanding, but the undisputed truth is the abuse of the law and action of government department that upsets most who care to pay attention to what is happening outside of their home

 

[JRH6856]

This one case is complicated beyond most understanding, but the undisputed truth is the abuse of the law and action of government department that upsets most who care to pay attention to what is happening outside of their home

What I run into most is that so many people look at the results and not the method. If they like end result, that is enough to justify whatever means was used to achieve it. But usually they don't look that far. So they see a headline that says "x number of illegal guns confiscated in midnight raid" and think "good" and go on to the tv guide...

 

[BluewaterLa]

Well said JR! That's a point I've tried to make, your wording is a better explanation of how a majority can be misled or misinformed about topics.
Keep watching tv it will rot your brain I guess that's what my grandparents were warning me about

 

[barnbwt]

"They knew about building AK's and AR's from kits but didn't know that you could buy an unfinished lower and build a gun without paperwork. I guess that makes them all FUDDs"

Ummm, no. I said the combo of ignorance/animosity that many gunowners do display towards built guns is reminiscent of Fuddism. Like I said, building is legal, just as AR15s are legal. Yet there are gun owners as well as anti's who would deny us both. As with the AWB, pretty much all that animosity from gunowners stemmed solely from them being ignorant of the legality and benefits of the item in question. That is why there are so few Fudds today that scorn black rifles --they understand the benefits of them, and know they are perfectly legal and acceptable.

If everyone knew gun building was somewhat common, not correlated meaningfully with crime more so than any other activity involving guns, has cost and privacy benefits, is a great education, and a lot of fun... I think they'd end up on our side of the argument.

TCB

 

[JSH1]

All of that has nothing to do with the issue at hand. Ares and EP Armory were raided for selling firearms without a license. If you are going to be in business you have to follow the law. If you don't, expect a knock on the door some day.

 

[Sam1911]

If you are going to be in business you have to follow the law. If you don't, expect a knock on the door some day.

Well, as an intensely oversimplified generalization, yes.

But that doesn't have anything to do with EP and ARES Armor's current situation.

 

[JSH1]

It has everything to do with Ares and EP Armory's situation. I haven't seen anything that says EP submitted their lower for approval before starting to manufacturer and sell them.

 

[Sam1911]

But that's not breaking the law. Submitting something isn't required. There isn't a law to follow here. The ATF is looking to redefine what they make as a firearm, but that doesn't indicate that they weren't "following the law" prior to that redefinition.

 

[CoalTrain49]

But that's not breaking the law. Submitting something isn't required. There isn't a law to follow here. The ATF is looking to redefine what they make as a firearm, but that doesn't indicate that they weren't "following the law" prior to that redefinition.

That's how I see it.

Except the ATF uses the same tactics of shock and awe as if it were the law.

And what happens to the people that purchased those receivers. Does the ATF target them in the same manner they targeted ARES?

See, this goes way beyond a legal interpretation of what constitutes a finished receiver. If I were a judge I would have to say that it has to be capable of accepting all the hardware it needs to function, which can be demonstrated to even someone like me. Otherwise the ATF will forever be redefining things to their liking and breaking doors down and grabbing computers. If the states don't like it they are free to declare unregistered receivers illegal just like 30 round mags and assault weapons.

Typical fed gov't harassment. They could just get the regs changed if they wanted without all the drama.

As ARES said, this is a civil rights issue.

 

[Sam1911]

And what happens to the people that purchased those receivers. Does the ATF target them in the same manner they targeted ARES?

Highly unlikely. A simple letter telling them how to proceed will handle most owners. Of course, as with any contraband, if someone refuses to comply that becomes a separate issue.

 

[JSH1]

But that's not breaking the law. Submitting something isn't required. There isn't a law to follow here. The ATF is looking to redefine what they make as a firearm, but that doesn't indicate that they weren't "following the law" prior to that redefinition.

No it is not against the law to not submit a sample to the ATF but it is the prudent thing to do since it is the ATF that decides if that lower is a firearm or not. EP Armory gambled and lost. They thought their lower was legal but it turns out it is not and it was a big gamble considering that getting it wrong means committing a felony.

 

[Sam1911]

Well, if you take the time to read the thread you'll see that I made very similar points.

However, I would not ever try to contend that someone is committing a felony by making something that hasn't yet been declared illegal.

And, apparently neither is the ATF. No charges have been filed, you'll note, and it is quite unlikely that any will be. If they do persist in their assumption that this is a firearm and must be sold with the 4473 transfer, they'll send a cease and desist letter and try to collect up any lower (blanks?) that were sold and are now contraband, but there doesn't seem to be any reason to believe they'll try to prosecute EP/ARES for what they LATER decided wasn't legal.

Remember, Bill Akins is a free man and was never charged with any felony even though he sold a whole bunch of "machine guns" ... as the ATF later declared them to be.

 

[JSH1]

Manufacturing firearms for sale without a license is a felony. Period, end of story. The ATF doesn't have to tell you to stop first and ignorance of the law is no excuse.

That said, I agree with you that the ATF doesn't seem like the are looking to press charges. They seem to be satisfied to simply collect the receivers. However that doesn't mean they can't press charges and the more ARES impedes the ATF's efforts to collect the lowers the more likely they will be charged.