Armed neighbors erroneously detain would-be suspects

[Slamfire]

Anyone remember the fuss that was caused when a neighbor called the cops, who came over and arrested black Harvard Professor Henry Louis Gates Jr., when Professor Gates could not get his front door open?

http://www.boston.com/news/local/breaking_news/2009/07/harvard.html

Pointing guns ought to be a last resort when you can ask questions first or offer "to be of assistance".

 

[Kleanbore]

Whenever anyone picks up or draws a firearm under any circumstances, he or she had better know the answers to the questions, "why am I doing this?" and "what is it that I intend to do with this thing?".

The answer to the latter may, of course, be conditional.

If those answers are not good ones, that should be a pretty good indication that picking up or drawing the firearm is not a wise idea.

Whether the answers are "good" is not just a legal question; there are the tactical aspects, including those of the physical safety of the actor(s)

Without prejudging the trial or plea bargain that is yet to come, there are two extremely good indications that the Canoles were ill prepared to answer those questions from the legal standpoint. The first is the reported statement "shut up or I'll shoot"; the second is the utterly ridiculous idea that they were exercising their "Second Amendment right."

And then there are the other aspects. As Big Boy pointed out,

....if someone plain clothed was to walk up behind me and point an gun at me, they are likely to be treated with an armed response from me.

And then there is the very real possibility of being detected by first responders who had been summoned by someone else. Let's see--a 911 call about people apparently breaking into a house in the dark, supplemented by a report that two men with rifles had been seen, and then the police come upon a couple of guys skulking around with AR-15s....

 

[JRH6856]

It occurs to me that our collective opinion of the Canoles actions and the collective opinions of the Antis may be similar: "Stupid gun owners behaving stupidly with guns" Where we would differ is in the response. The antis are more likely to believe people have a right to behave stupidly but should be punished for having guns. We are more likely to believe people have a right to have guns but should be punished for behaving stupidly.

Just a thought...

 

[rajb123]

I would not have tried to change the locks on my son's new home at night. ...especially if it was a vacant foreclosed property.

15 acres is a nice spread....

 

[788Ham]

While the son was the purchaser, real-estate agent said it was okay, and not having the closing papers with them, all things being correct and proper: Don't you think it would have been better for everyone involved to wait for the light of day to try and change the locks on the doors? I mean c'mon! Everything looks better in the daylight, you're definitely not trying to hide a thing this way, folks can see what you're doing, attempting to do, even if you're not familiar with the way things are done by most citizens. No, the two jug heads didn't have to be the cavalry coming to the rescue, stupidity seems rampant in this family! Being helpful to society is one thing, being dain bramaged is another!

 

[Kleanbore]

I would not have tried to change the locks on my son's new home at night. ...especially if it was a vacant foreclosed property.

Where they live and work with respect to the location of the property, their work schedules, the temperature during the day, and the time by which the locks needed to be changed would all enter into that.

I personally would not have gone unarmed, and I would probably have taken a friend or two to keep eyes and ears open.

 

[X-Rap]

The timing struck me as odd too, can't understand the urgency to change the locks immediately.
Is it conclusive that they were actually held at gunpoint or were guns just present at the confrontation, I still can't believe those two idiots would point rifles at an old couple like that.

 

[Cosmoline]

If it's a foreclosed property it's a good idea to get in there fast so you can ensure there won't be any complications from the prior owners or third parties. Plus there may have been a moving van's schedule to accommodate.

In any case, it was their house closing papers or not. Heck even prior to closing they have title in equity which includes possession rights. The neighbors, in contrast, had no right to be on that property for any reason whatever. They were breaking the law the moment they set foot on it, let alone with firearms let alone holding the owners at gunpoint.

I'm surprised not so much by the use of firearms as by the flagrant assumption on the part of the neighbors that they had some ability to charge over to property they did not own. Around these parts if I'm wanting to see what's happening in a vacant cabin I'll stand well back from it in plain sight and yell "HELLO THE CABIN!" No way I'm sticking my head in there. It's a good way to get it blown off.

 

[clamman]

I bought a house once and the sellers split without giving us the keys. I called the cops and he watched (actually helped) me gain entry. It's pretty simple to be smart folks. Just gotta think.

 

[Slamfire]

I listened to the Son discuss the incident on Canadian Radio.

The Kalonji’s identified themselves as the owners, something of which the Canoles did not believe. While holding the Kalonji’s under gunpoint, the Canoles asked a series of questions, such as “how much did the house sell for”, etc, and upon being given answers to questions which were none of their business, they proceeded to tell the old man “wrong answer!”. After a while they told the man to shut up or they would shoot him.

The Cops came and arrested the Kalonji’s and they spent the night in jail.

The Son says his Mom and Dad are still traumatized.

Look, the Kalonji’s were the legal property owners, the Canoles had absolutely no right to walk on the Kalonji’s property and threaten them with lethal force. Plus the couple spent the night in jail.

The quote from the Canoles “I don't know what they can charge me with , this is my Second Amendment right. Look, this is the country out here, and we protect our own." just shows them to be block heads.

 

[harrygunner]

Recent events underline what "You're not a cop." means.

 

[Teachu2]

Recent events underline what "You're not a cop." means.

Except in this case, where the cops jumped right onto the Stupidity Bandwagon.

The real money in this case will come from the taxpayers, as a settlement for the false arrest by the officers.

 

[Doghandler]

Why does this case cause me to hear banjo music in my head, as in the theme to Deliverance?

 

[JustinJ]

Given they were there to change locks, meaning they must have had a replacement set, and the property was foreclosed there story was certainly credible. The notion that they should have to only come onto their sons private property at a specific time to avoid being taken captive by hillbillies is abslutely absurd.

Why does this case cause me to hear banjo music in my head, as in the theme to Deliverance?

Given it was a father and son team the story reminded me more of Idiocracy. "Welcome to Costco, I love you."

 

[harrygunner]

the cops jumped right onto the Stupidity Bandwagon

Yah, I saw that. Right friendly town there.

 

[tipoc]

I bet this one does not make "The Armed Citizen" page in American Rifleman.

If you have a gun or carry a gun, 99.9% of the time you should do whatever you would do if you did not have the gun with you.

There is a difference between looking out for your self and your neighbors and vigilantism. The latter can get the wrong folks killed.

Think on this some...what if the Kalonji's had been armed and their response to seeing two armed men creeping up on them had been to "stand their ground" and draw and shoot or in some way fight for their lives. The comedic element would be gone and the tragic move to the front. The Kalonji's would still be in jail as well. The cops would not have patted them on the back and sent them home as they did with the Canoles.

The cops there knew the Canoles and took them at their word. They did not believe the Kalonji's. The Kalonji's, who were unarmed, escaped death that night because they used their heads. Had they made the wrong move a Canole may have fired or a cop may have fired.

Had the Kalonjis been armed and defended themselves and killed a Canole or two the cops would have arrested them on the spot or worse. Maybe even had they disarmed a Canole and held them at gunpoint.

Nope, SYG, Castle doctrine, the 2nd does not empower one to be a knucklehead and get away with it. Ya draw a gun on folks it's serious buisness. Ya kill the wrong fella it's serious and should be.

tipoc

 

[bikerdoc]

This thread could be a text book on what not to do.

Post 5 got it right
Post 13 got it right

And the man that said "You cant fix stupid" wins the door prize.

 

[mgmorden]

The notion that they should have to only come onto their sons private property at a specific time to avoid being taken captive by hillbillies is abslutely absurd.

That's my thoughts exactly. When we have to worry about what time one chooses to do things on your own property for fear of neighbors charging over and holding you at gunpoint, then there is something seriously wrong.

They're there acting on behalf of the owner (their son). They have that right regardless of what time it is.

 

[Deanimator]

And sadly the final stupidity may be with the new home owner hiring the high powered lawyer to sue the pants off of the offending neighbors or have them thrown in jail.
That will bring the neighborhood harmony around.

My reaction would have been to seek cover and shoot them both. They should consider being jailed and sued into poverty a gift.

You point a gun at me for no reason or a stupid reason, and I'm going to make that a life ending or at the very least, life changing event for you.

Don't like that? Don't point a gun at me.

The level of my desire to be in "harmony" with low grade morons is precisely -ZERO-.

 

[jawman]

I'm wondering how this would have played out had the couple who were changing locks actually been burglars. What if they broke into some other homes in the area that night or previous nights? I don't think the man and his son would be in trouble if that was the case. There have been cases when a person catches a burglar and holds them at gunpoint until the police arrives and the police are happy for it. However that's usually on your own private property, not on property that is not yours just because you have a gun and think you're the law. The AR15ers in this story just jumped to conclusions and are going to pay the price for it. They should have called the cops and kept an eye on the "suspects" from a safe distance until the police arrived. Unfortunately there are irresponsible people who own guns and shouldn't be. It paints the rest of us who are responsible, law abiding gun owning citizens with a bias brush. I hope they get sued and get charged. Morons like that scare me and shouldn't own a gun if they can't keep it under control and can't be responsible.

 

[BSA1]

For those who live in a state that allows what is the legal definitation of "Citizens Arrest?" The reason I ask is my state doesn't allow it.

 

[comus3]

It occurs to me that our collective opinion of the Canoles actions and the collective opinions of the Antis may be similar: "Stupid gun owners behaving stupidly with guns" Where we would differ is in the response. The antis are more likely to believe people have a right to behave stupidly but should be punished for having guns. We are more likely to believe people have a right to have guns but should be punished for behaving stupidly.

Just a thought...

That is a good point

 

[FIVETWOSEVEN]

Think on this some...what if the Kalonji's had been armed and their response to seeing two armed men creeping up on them had been to "stand their ground" and draw and shoot or in some way fight for their lives. The comedic element would be gone and the tragic move to the front. The Kalonji's would still be in jail as well. The cops would not have patted them on the back and sent them home as they did with the Canoles.

So the cops would think that despite them being on their son's property changing the lock on a door with two dead neighbors, both with AR 15s on the ground next to them, they would assume that they are murderers or something? That doesn't make sense.

My reaction would have been to seek cover and shoot them both. They should consider being jailed and sued into poverty a gift.

Ninja leaping into cover with two idiots covering you with AR 15s and shooting them both a compact handgun would work? Yeah right, who said there was even good cover around them? I don't know about you but I can't jump out of the way of a bullet that close. Just like bringing a knife to a gun fight, don't bring a handgun to a rifle fight.

 

[tipoc]

Interesting how folks here view this incident.

The only people who acted with intelligence that night were the Kalonjis. They kept their heads, acted cool and that kept them alive.

The Canoles did about everything wrong.

The cops, especially the cops, were wrong. They are the trained professionals. The armed enforcers of the rule of law. They did a number of things wrong that night among them congratulating the Canoles for a job well done. By patting the Canoles on the back they sent a message to others that more actions like this will be welcomed.

The Kalonjis' lawyer should have something to say about that. No one else will.

tipoc

 

[tipoc]

Quote:
"Think on this some...what if the Kalonji's had been armed and their response to seeing two armed men creeping up on them had been to "stand their ground" and draw and shoot or in some way fight for their lives. The comedic element would be gone and the tragic move to the front. The Kalonji's would still be in jail as well. The cops would not have patted them on the back and sent them home as they did with the Canoles."

So the cops would think that despite them being on their son's property changing the lock on a door with two dead neighbors, both with AR 15s on the ground next to them, they would assume that they are murderers or something? That doesn't make sense.

Remember, when the cops showed up they knew the Canoles. The lawmen took the word of the Canoles over the word of the Kalonjis and made no effort to check out the Kalonjis story that they were on their son's property before arresting them. They then thanked the Canoles.

Had the Kalonjis shot the Canoles the cops most certainly would have arrested them. Possibly shot them as well. If the law did not check out the Kalonjis story with no bodies on the ground before arresting them does anyone really think they would be more inclined to check out the story first with the bodies of locals on the ground?

tipoc