Army Times Article on M9 vs. 45ACP

[MNine]

I bought a copy of the Army Times after seeing a huge front page picture of a 45ACP round and bold letters discussing the Army ditching the M9 and going to 45ACP. Did anyone else read this article? It pretty much stated that the Army is looking at a 45 ACP with 1) a manual safety 2) light rail and 3) DAO.
I believe the test results they went through were hashed out in previous threads here on the high road (cross section of troops testing different commercial pistols), but it is interesting that this made front page news in the Army Times. Does this lend any legitimacy to the rumors? They also stated no new M9s are being procured by the Army from Beretta, only replacement parts for the 185,000 in service. (sorry if I may be off on my numbers i am doing it from memory).
I can provide more details once I get my hands on the magazine again.

 

[Ivy Mike]

Whats the point of manual safety and DAO?

stupidity control?

 

[MNine]

Essentially, yes. As I recall, the article said the soldiers tested wanted one because it was the same manual of arms that they are used to.

 

[buzz_knox]

The strange thing is that the manual of arms should be that of their primary weapon, which happens to be a single action, manual safety weapon with no grip safety.

Funny how a logical chain of thought (same manual of arms) ends up with the wrong conclusion (focus on the secondary, not the primary).

I started thinking about my primary HD weapon (AR carbine) and decided to go with the 1911 as the secondary to keep the manual of arms the same.

 

[Dave R]

Whats the point of manual safety and DAO?

Probably a reaction to that dumb trooper who shot himself by twirling his Glock on his finger like an SAA.

OTOH, now that I own a DAO .45 with a manual safety (a PT-145) I really like the manual of arms. A Glock can only be carried in condition one, or cocked and UN-locked. I carried a P-11 like that for years, and was never totally comfortable with cocked & un-locked carry, nor condition one carry. But I'm comfortable with DAO and cocked. So I sympathize with their criteria.

 

[MNine]

I just checked the article. It says the Army has not firmly decided on DA/SA or DAO. It also said another requirement was high capacity.

 

[wally]

It they are unhappy with Beretta 9mm mags in the sandbox, they are really gonna love Para Ordnance hicap 45 mags! Mine have to be super clean or its fail to feed city.

--wally.

 

[gbran]

THR Quote?

Somebody on this site stated the following;

A 9mm might expand, but a .45 will never shrink.

 

[Grunt]

These days I'm a CATM instructor in the Air Force reserve and I can tell you, when you see some of these people on the range, and mainly they are catagorey C shooters, the thought of a DAO with a manual safety as well isn't really a bad idea. Some of these folks are downright scary!!! Personally, I'd like to see a DAO with a pre-cocked hammer spring (ie H&K's LEM, Sig's DAK or the likes of the S&W SW99 AO trigger) would be a good choice.

 

[mrapathy2000]

the military does not use 9mm JHP anyways

 

[The Drew]

In reality, if it is to be a manual safety... then a single action is more appropriate...

Many of the DA's that I know that have a manual safety, won't allow you to put the safety on unless it is cocked... and then the safety either decocks AND turns the safety on or just decocks...

The CZ 75b is an exception to this rule... as you can carry C&L... or manually decock...

adding a manual safety to a DAO means you're attempting to solve a people problem with technology... This usually ends up in disaster...

 

[lunaslide]

Whats the point of manual safety and DAO?

Honestly? So that H&K gets the contract if they do it. Since they are supposed to look to U.S. made stuff first when procuring equipment, by making the requirements narrow enough to specify only one make of gun they can justify going foreign and rewarding their high dollar kickback favorites, H&K and FN.

I personally think that a manual saftey on a combat pistol became an archaic holdover once the decocker was invented, but thats one man's opinion. I can't see a manual saftey doing anything that a DA/SA w/ decocker doesn't do except get you killed when you need your pistol most.

The only real saftey with a firearm is intimate knowledge through regular training in the manual of arms for that weapon.

 

[wally]

IMHO DA/SA will get you killed faster if the long heavy pull of that first shot misses when you need it most.

You can claim "with proper training", but that ain't gonna happen en mass.

--wally.

 

[Adventurer_96]

I was surprised that the USAF allowed us to holster our Berettas w/safety off, round in the chamber, hammer down. I think it was a more progressive, for lack of a better term, understanding of the firearm and its use than when I was in the Marine Corps, where we treated our M-9s as M-1911s.

Maybe they would accept using a sidearm which is DAO-ish based upon that. Whoa, wouldn't that be cool, carrying an XD at work and at play?

 

[PCRCCW]

How about the CZ97 or Witness lineup. The Witness guns can have the safety lever "ON" with the hammer down. At least they could have the choice to carry Cond 1 or 2...........
Shoot well......

 

[Gordon]

I just bought a .45 Witness Compact and with 200+ guns to chose from couldn't be happier! The CZ-97 I carry in my truck is way too big and clunky . I carry the Witness ; chamber loaded,half cock and safety applied. I like the safe feeling as well or better than a revolver. Split seconds are not an issue to me, it gives my mind an extra edge to make good decisions!

 

[Plumber576]

http://www.hkdefense.us/pages/military-le/handguns/usp45ct.html

 

[DonNikmare]

So if this happens, is it likely to bring down the price of .45 ammo and by how much would you guesstimate?

 

[Dr. J Frame]

So if this happens, is it likely to bring down the price of .45 ammo and by how much would you guesstimate?

Little, probably, since the .45acp has remained in constant US military service for nearly a century.

Across the board, there's roughly 2X the amount of lead in a 230gr .45 round than a 115gr 9mm round, yet the price of a box of ammunition is not double, given the same manufacturer's line is observed. The extra cost would cover the extra materials needed to produce the larger round.

 

[1991gulfwarvet]

they should go with the SIG P-220 the best .45 acp pistol made

 

[dragon1]

The army went to the 1911 45acp in the first place because the 9mm/38 wasn't powerful enough to stop the enemy. In 1985 uncle sam had a brain fart and changed to 9mm.
It didn't work then and it doesn't work now!
Go back to Colt 1911 45apc...no more problem!!!
"But troops can't handle it. BS! Train them to handle them.
BTW while we are 'correcting' things...no females in combat zones!

 

[rockstar.esq]

"It didn't work then and it doesn't work now!"

Sure killed a lot of people for a caliber that doesn't work.


DAO seems like a solution to a problem that doesn't exist. Negligent discharges have occured on crew served weapons. Putting a few more ounces into the trigger for a trooper that shouldn't have made it out of boot camp won't prevent stupidity from causing problems. For all the negativity I hear about Glocks pre-cocked striker, I don't hear about a ton of accidental discharges. As I recall, FBI testing included drop tests. When the Glock first made the scene it was lauded for it's incredible durability and functionality well past the point of absurd. Now everybody's clammering for a return of the 1911. An expensive, hand fitted SA low capacity .45 because our lord and saviour John M Browning designed it. I'd like to have it known that he designed the Hi power after the 1911 as an effort to address what he felt were shortcomings. One guess what caliber it was.

I'm not saying that the 9mm is superior to the .45 the whole expand vs. shrink arguement. I wouldn't want to get shot with either.
It just strikes me that when the .223 fails to kill on the first shot, we have our troops packing hi cap magazines so they can finish what they started. Sure a 30 cal might have only required one shot. The M1 Garand is an elegant, accurate rifle that weighs a ton and has very few rounds on tap. I don't think the .45 was truly nixed because of recoil. If you really believe that our military is not capable of training troops to manage that caliber, you don't have much faith in our countries rich military heritage.

Perhaps Dragon 1 could find it in himself to consider that thousands of Russian women defended their country in WWII. Had those women not chosen to fight, the outcome of the war could have been very different. Could have even meant that more U.S troops would have died.