Well hopefully after the holidays we will hear back on the status of this whole situation. Either the ATF will process the new FFL for the new shop or they will deny it and it can move to court I believe would be the next step.
ATF registering firearms
- Thread starter Ryanxia
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driftpin
Member
I can't speak as to what PAC N Arms will do but I hope at some point we'll start pushing this subject and getting people to start asking FFL's, the more that ask and the more that realize you CAN do it without reprisal (assuming this case ends well) the more that might not comply. Of course, how do we weed out the liars?
And like it was said, it is not illegal if the FFL voluntarily gives it up, just if they demand it. Personally I feel safer knowing there's someone willing to protect my information.
I'm a customer of Phil's and was caught up on what he's been going through with this bullying and I applaud him for putting up a fight. <...> Cabela's and Kittery Trading Post apparently just turn a blind eye and the let the ATF come in and copy all their 4473s. Is there a way file a FOIA request to see what <...> is going on with this? I have nothing to hide but when Phil told me about this, <...> (and) as I thought about it more, I was enraged at these other dealers just allowing the ATF to just run rampant in their records. <................> If Phil and one shop in Alaska are the only ones standing up to this, than we are screwed as gun owners. If these places are selling guns and allowing the ATF to just come in and thumb drive their records than they ought to have a sign out saying, "We supply all your information to the ATF so if you are making a purchase here, please be informed that, you are giving consent to (insert gun shop here) registering your firearm".
It sure would be nice if other gun shops (and I know there are a few that are probably lurking on here, cough, Howell's) actually had the <integrity> to stand up to this tyranny. If these places won't protect our privacy, and say NO to these <creatures> than I'll just give all my business to Phil. At least I know he keeps his word.
We need to make some noise over this or we're plain shafted!!!
I don't see how more people on here aren't freaking livid at their local gun shops for just handing over YOUR info to these clowns.
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driftpin
Member
Shouldn't this be in the legal section? Seems like it would get more hits.
Do you really think your FFL dealer who makes his living selling guns will tell you the truth about allowing access to his records?
I wouldn't say this classifies as being in the legal section because the law in this case is already established and is not being questioned, from the letter in the OP
This is to let people know that they are going above their limitations and everyone should be finding out if their local shops are allowing it (most are).
While I'm at it a quick update: There has been NO revocation of FFL as has been threatened. It seems the ATF is in quite the pickle. If they approve the new FFL they are showing that PAC N Arms is within their Rights, if they deny it, it is all set to go to court. Curious to see what they will do. Will certainly keep everyone up to speed.
This is to let people know that they are going above their limitations and everyone should be finding out if their local shops are allowing it (most are).
While I'm at it a quick update: There has been NO revocation of FFL as has been threatened. It seems the ATF is in quite the pickle. If they approve the new FFL they are showing that PAC N Arms is within their Rights, if they deny it, it is all set to go to court. Curious to see what they will do. Will certainly keep everyone up to speed.
mgkdrgn
Member
You do realize that when an FFL closes up shop, the ATF gets ALL their records then anyway, right?I'm a customer of Phil's and was caught up on what he's been going through with this bullying and I applaud him for putting up a fight. <...> Cabela's and Kittery Trading Post apparently just turn a blind eye and the let the ATF come in and copy all their 4473s. Is there a way file a FOIA request to see what <...> is going on with this? I have nothing to hide but when Phil told me about this, <...> (and) as I thought about it more, I was enraged at these other dealers just allowing the ATF to just run rampant in their records. <................> If Phil and one shop in Alaska are the only ones standing up to this, than we are screwed as gun owners. If these places are selling guns and allowing the ATF to just come in and thumb drive their records than they ought to have a sign out saying, "We supply all your information to the ATF so if you are making a purchase here, please be informed that, you are giving consent to (insert gun shop here) registering your firearm".
It sure would be nice if other gun shops (and I know there are a few that are probably lurking on here, cough, Howell's) actually had the <integrity> to stand up to this tyranny. If these places won't protect our privacy, and say NO to these <creatures> than I'll just give all my business to Phil. At least I know he keeps his word.
We need to make some noise over this or we're plain shafted!!!
I don't see how more people on here aren't freaking livid at their local gun shops for just handing over YOUR info to these clowns.
Mike1234567
member
Interesting...
As MErl said, only records in the past 20 years. Otherwise if a gun shop can legally destroy them (after 20 years).
Atomd - I was told her office has put some pressure on the ATF but I can't back that up so let's consider it a rumor for now.
driftpin
Member
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Edster12
Member
Ryanxia any news as of late. I had seen a blurb a while back on Gun Owners of MAine that the ATF had shown up with a subpoena. I was busy and didn't get to read the whole thing.
I do not understand why the owner of the shop did not make a couple phone calls of his own say to his local or state law enforcement customers and that ATF agent should have wound up duct taped to a tree with a bottle of honey dumped over his head. This was Alaska was it not?
Mike1234567
member
The judge who issued the subpoena too, don't you think?
DHJenkins
Member
So I guess I'm alone in thinking that the FBI doesn't delete background check data and the BATFE e-file system is already a national gun registry...
Mike1234567
member
No, you're not alone in your thinking. We'd be fools to think otherwise. What we need is another Snowden to expose what the FBI and BATFE are doing with firearm purchase information.
dogtown tom
Member
It's a violation of Federal law if they don't delete it.
If they do keep the info, it doesn't tell them anything other than the buyers info and type of gun.
If Handgun, they don't know if you bought a revolver or pistol.
If Long Gun, they don't know if you bought a rifle or shotgun.
If Other Firearm, they don't know if you bought an AR lower or a PGO shotgun.
They aren't told brand, model, caliber or serial number.
You wouldn't be alone on this because the National Firearms Act of 1934 requires a registry of NFA firearms.
jerkface11
Member
Well there's no way this administration would violate federal law.
Mike1234567
member
Nor most other administrations in the last 20-30 years...
Mike1234567
member
Nor would any Federal Bureau violate our constitutional rights...
barnbwt
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"It's a violation of Federal law if they don't delete it."
So is being found in contempt of Congress. Somehow Holder didn't feel like prosecuting himself. Somehow I doubt he'd prosecute his own agency for taking actions that supposedly would make their jobs easier.
The illegality of these registry activities are what bother me much much more than any registry itself. Seeing how incompetently the ATF administers the 200K strong or so NFA database, there is no doubt a universal gun registry would be worthless, and not be particularly useful in any case. But it continues the precedent of them making up and enforcing their own rules as they go along, when it happens to please them.
What was that line? "He has erected a multitude of New Offices, and sent hither swarms of Officers to harass our people..."
Pretty sure Offices is a synonym for Bureau's and Agencies
TCB
So is being found in contempt of Congress. Somehow Holder didn't feel like prosecuting himself
. Somehow I doubt he'd prosecute his own agency for taking actions that supposedly would make their jobs easier.The illegality of these registry activities are what bother me much much more than any registry itself. Seeing how incompetently the ATF administers the 200K strong or so NFA database, there is no doubt a universal gun registry would be worthless, and not be particularly useful in any case. But it continues the precedent of them making up and enforcing their own rules as they go along, when it happens to please them.
What was that line? "He has erected a multitude of New Offices, and sent hither swarms of Officers to harass our people..."
Pretty sure Offices is a synonym for Bureau's and Agencies
TCB
Tinman357
Member
So, i ask, what is the definition of a BATFE agent commiting a federal crime? A criminal, right? A criminal committing a felony. Right?
http://www.atf.gov/content/Firearms/firearms-industry/FAQ-firearms
What records am I required to forward to ATF upon discontinuance of my business?
The records consist of the licensee’s bound acquisition/disposition (A/D) records, ATF Forms 4473, ATF Forms 3310.4 (Report of Multiple Sale or Other Disposition of Pistols and Revolvers), ATF Forms 3310.11 (Federal Firearms Licensee Theft/Loss Report), records of transactions in semiautomatic assault weapons, records of importation (ATF Forms 6 and 6A), and law enforcement certification letters. If the licensee was granted a variance to use a computerized record-keeping system, the licensee is required to provide a complete printout of the entire A/D records.
[27 CFR 478.127]
Must a licensed importer's, manufacturer's, or dealer's records be surrendered to ATF if the licensee discontinues business?
If the business is being discontinued completely, the licensed dealer, manufacturer or importer is required, within 30 days, to forward the business records to the following address:
National Tracing Center
ATF / Out of Business Records Center
244 Needy Road
Martinsburg, West Virginia
25405 USA
Voice 1-800-788-7133 x 1590
Failure to surrender required records is a felony and could result in the licensee being fined up to $250,000, imprisoned up to 5 years, or both. A licensee discontinuing business also must notify the Federal Firearms Licensing Center within 30 days.
If someone is taking over the business, the original licensee should underline the final entry in each bound book, note the date of transfer, and forward all records and forms to the successor (who must apply for and receive his or her own license before lawfully engaging in business) or forward the records and forms to the ATF Out-of-Business Records Center. If the successor licensee receives records and forms from the original licensee, the successor licensee may choose to forward these records and forms to the ATF Out-of-Business Record Center.
These record are scanned to be used tracing guns but until the ATF scan them they are search manually when a trace is requested.
http://www.npr.org/2013/05/20/185530763/the-low-tech-way-guns-get-traced
What records am I required to forward to ATF upon discontinuance of my business?
The records consist of the licensee’s bound acquisition/disposition (A/D) records, ATF Forms 4473, ATF Forms 3310.4 (Report of Multiple Sale or Other Disposition of Pistols and Revolvers), ATF Forms 3310.11 (Federal Firearms Licensee Theft/Loss Report), records of transactions in semiautomatic assault weapons, records of importation (ATF Forms 6 and 6A), and law enforcement certification letters. If the licensee was granted a variance to use a computerized record-keeping system, the licensee is required to provide a complete printout of the entire A/D records.
[27 CFR 478.127]
Must a licensed importer's, manufacturer's, or dealer's records be surrendered to ATF if the licensee discontinues business?
If the business is being discontinued completely, the licensed dealer, manufacturer or importer is required, within 30 days, to forward the business records to the following address:
National Tracing Center
ATF / Out of Business Records Center
244 Needy Road
Martinsburg, West Virginia
25405 USA
Voice 1-800-788-7133 x 1590
Failure to surrender required records is a felony and could result in the licensee being fined up to $250,000, imprisoned up to 5 years, or both. A licensee discontinuing business also must notify the Federal Firearms Licensing Center within 30 days.
If someone is taking over the business, the original licensee should underline the final entry in each bound book, note the date of transfer, and forward all records and forms to the successor (who must apply for and receive his or her own license before lawfully engaging in business) or forward the records and forms to the ATF Out-of-Business Records Center. If the successor licensee receives records and forms from the original licensee, the successor licensee may choose to forward these records and forms to the ATF Out-of-Business Record Center.
These record are scanned to be used tracing guns but until the ATF scan them they are search manually when a trace is requested.
http://www.npr.org/2013/05/20/185530763/the-low-tech-way-guns-get-traced
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