scythefwd
Member
For everyone with the get prepaid legal advice.... I need to know what you do for a living because I need to change careers. It is 2k starting around here for a lawyer on "retainer".
ATF visited my dealer over multiple handgun purchases
- Thread starter c5_nc
- Start date
- Status
budiceman
Member
Wanna speed things up? Buy 4 more guns!!
22-rimfire
Member
Good one! 
GoWolfpack
Member
- Joined
- May 13, 2009
- Messages
- 522
Nope. Plenty of discussions on this topic around here.
But if you open your fat mouth and talk to them without a lawyer present, you'll probably say something that they can use to put you in prison if they decide to. If you don't tell them anything, they can't prove that you're guilty.
It doesn't matter that refusing to be questioned without a lawyer makes you look guilty. Talking to the fuzz without a lawyer can get you sent to prison, guilty or not.
Youtube "Never talk to the police"
TexasRifleman
Moderator Emeritus
Actually the wording of the law is pretty clear, and buying just to resell isn't, believe it or not, something that requires an FFL. Only if the intent is to resell with the "principal objective of livelihood and profit" is there a problem.
Now, it's no surprise that this comes up on their radar given multiple purchases of the same type of gun, but the law is very specific about when an FFL is required:
You must be "engaged in the business" which means:
"Principal objective of livelihood and profit" means:
All that said, buying multiples of the same gun puts a big red flashing light over your head.
22-rimfire
Member
Yes, to what TexasRifleman said.... history would be important here.
It becomes a court thing about demonstrating intent and so forth. It is not something the average person wants to get involved with.
It becomes a court thing about demonstrating intent and so forth. It is not something the average person wants to get involved with.
Gouranga
Member
Man, you guys must have had some seriously bad experiences with police. I have actually, never had issues with cops asking me questions, and answering reasonable ones. From the discussions and recommendations here, I am guessing my experiences are not the standard everywhere in the nation.
Given the same situation, if I was SURE I was in compliance with the law, I would have to problems chatting with the ATF, or any LEO, and granting reasonable requests (searching my home would not be something I would consider reasonable). I would think it would pretty much just expedite the end to their inquiry and allow all involved to go on with their lives. I would thought change my tact quickly if the authorities came in all Dick Tracy on me.
If you have any question whatsever as to whether you are in compliance with the law, I would consult an attorney and KNOW one way or another and act accordingly. I would not talk with the authorities until I knew the answer 100% and I would then defer them to my attorney.
I know from experience I had with my friend on his DWI case, they made out very well because the officer that arrested them noted in the report that he was "Extremely cooperative with officers.". If you are in the right, IMO, there is not a problem cooperating and being cordial. As long as the authorities return the favor, I would think you could get it over quick and easy.
Deanimator
Member
If you're not a lawyer, how do you know IF it's a "reasonable" question?
If you're not a lawyer, how do you know IF you're "in compliance"?
How many firearms can you sell before you're in the "business" of selling firearms?
NOBODY KNOWS.
It's a secret and the BATFE isn't telling.
If you knew how to obey (and thereby not DISobey) the law, you'd be able to slip through a "loophole".
rattletrap1970
Member
If you live in a state where there is no limitation on how many guns you can purchase in a set amount of time and the two other guns were sold legally, on paper, with all the right forms. Then I don't see the issue. If you have done everything to the letter of the law and the LAW comes visiting, just say, "Hi guys, I want to help you the best I can, that being said I will only do so through my lawyer, Here's his card."
Last edited:
Gouranga
Member
Judgment basically. On the rare occasion I have had an officer here, I make that determination at the time and circumstances. Good example, when I first moved here 3 days later an officer showed up with an arrest warrant for someone (not me) who had never lived there. He asked for my ID. Being his demeanor was not out of line, he was respectful, he was courteous. I showed him my drivers license, explained to him that individual had not ever lived there as far as I knew. Since I had the papers out, I even showed him the deed history on the property showing nobody by that name had ever owned it. At one point he asked if he could come in, I asked him what reason he had for the request, he could not give me an answer so I did not allow him to enter. He thanked me and left, the story was ended.
In that case, the questions and given the circumstances license check were not unreasonable, given he had an arrest warrant listing my address. Searching my home, after I provided him adequate documentation and responses to his question to prove the individual they were looking for was not in my home nor had he ever been, was not a reasonable request.
In the case where the law was well and clearly written. Unfortunately, frequently that is not the case which is why I said, if I was not SURE, I would definitely have a lawyer.
edit: I guess if the OP is asking....he is probably in a gray area and probably would be best served with an attorney.
Don't get me wrong, I see where you are coming from and IF you are not comfortable chatting with the officer, then it is absolutely your right to defer to an attorney and you should do so. If you are in any gray area of the law, definitely a good idea to chat with an attorney first. I guess what I have not experienced is any time where the authorities were out to get me or nail me to the wall. Some of the comments I have seen are definitely giving me the impression that is not always the case.
Last edited:
TexasRifleman
Moderator Emeritus
The problem here is that you are not dealing with simply "the police".
This is an agency that has publicly admitted to training it's agents to lie, whose motto is "Always Think Forfeiture" and who has tried in every way possible to demonize firearms and shooters, especially those who engage in legal private sales.
You simply can't risk dealing with an agency like this on the hope that "it will all turn out OK".
Care must be taken in any dealings with them. I have no doubt that many of their agents are good honest people, but the agency as a whole has a reputation for being extremely dishonest, so it would be very naive to not exercise caution.
Gouranga
Member
...alright, i can accept that. I have not yet had any dealing with them at all so I will defer to those of you that have. I have dealt with the FBI as part of my job, they were nice enough, but sounds like ATF is a different animal completely.
cottonmouth
Member
I don't see it as such a big deal. If I were the agent and you pulled the old "call my lawyer" bit it would make me realy start looking at you then. Just tell the truth, from what you told us you are good to go. If you act like you have something to hide they will probe further and further. "Talk to my lawyer" always meant "I'm guilty" to me and I'd beat the brush until I found what I was looking for.
J.B.
J.B.
BCCL
Member
"The advice to clam up, hire a lawyer etc seems especially bad. If you act guilty, they will assume you are guilty."
Wow, so actually using your Constitutional rights is bad advice?
Not even sure where to begin...................
Wow, so actually using your Constitutional rights is bad advice?
Not even sure where to begin...................
ljnowell
Member
Are you serious? The OP has done nothing Illegal at all. If he were to tell them the same thing he told us he wouldnt be in any trouble at all. They cant put him in prison for anything.
OP, if they visit you, just politely tell them that your firearm purchases are none of their business. You purchased them all legally to further your collection. Wish them a nice day and send them on their way.
Gazz
Member
I heard from a friend that a guy I used to know got a visit from the ATF because a couple of newer guns were traced to him and were found at the scene of a crime, two separate incidents in Massachusetts. Apparently he blah-blahed them and they went away. He probably said something like, "gee, I sold those to some guy, I forget who but he did show me his drivers license." In NH, there are no laws prohibiting private sales so there was nothing they could do. I have talked to the local police and they are aware of this guy and keep an eye on him.
I might guess that they do not even talk to you unless one of the guns turns up at a crime scene or in possesion of someone who is not legally able to buy one. Then they will get interested.
I might guess that they do not even talk to you unless one of the guns turns up at a crime scene or in possesion of someone who is not legally able to buy one. Then they will get interested.
I'm not overly worried about it, will just explain situation. They may not even bother to contact me. Worst thing is I set aside $20k for gun purchases (made a large profit on a Real Estate deal and set off a chuck of it) and not even $1500 spent so far and I have this. I just send in paperwork for two tax stamps for NFA items, hope this will not delay those. Dealer will not sale multiple handguns with a week to me or anyone else now b/c this triggered their first ATF visit.
bababooey32
Member
Yes if, as you posit, there is no evidence to the contrary. It's called the presumption of innocence. Unless they have actaul evidence otherwise, all transactions are presumed legal.
Prion
Member
Jeez, take your time. Enjoy your purchases. One a week? Most of could only dream of one every week. Try one every couple of months. Sorry, but I'm not feeling a whole lot of sympathy.
NavyLCDR
member
GoWolfpack said:
So, you think that the ATF has no authority of enforcement over a person that violates 18 USC 922 (a)(6) - Federal Law - Straw Purchase or
violates 18 USC 922 (d) - Federal Law - Providing a firearm to a prohibited person - just to name two of multiple Federal laws -
simply because that person's actions were performed within the confines of one state?
Flame me if you desire but there’s something here that just doesn’t sound right.
Let’s say I want a pistol which normally costs $300. I find a shop which has them for $250. They have three in stock. I want one. I buy all three.
What do I do with the two excess guns? Why did I buy them?
I’ve also bought several rifles at one time.
Who the hell cannot expect a call from the BATFE because of this.
I’m not the BATFE but even I am wondering what’s the deal here.
Let’s say I want a pistol which normally costs $300. I find a shop which has them for $250. They have three in stock. I want one. I buy all three.
What do I do with the two excess guns? Why did I buy them?
I’ve also bought several rifles at one time.
Who the hell cannot expect a call from the BATFE because of this.
I’m not the BATFE but even I am wondering what’s the deal here.
Deanimator
Member
He can "look" to his heart's content... within the limits of Federal law.
Without a lawyer, how will you know when he steps outside of those boundaries?
LEOs LAWFULLY pursuing an investigation have the power to lie to you. BATFE has gone WAY past that.
The OP has NOTHING to gain from talking to the BATFE without legal representation and everything to lose by doing so.
Officers'Wife
Member
Talk about your basic cop attitude here. You do not convince the executive branch employees of your innocence. They have neither the authority or the desire to make such determination. They are bound by a little thing called 'discovery' however. Therefore the proper language is "I need to consult my lawyer to find out if I have a legal duty to answer you."
There is a little sign on the wall of a law proffessor's office that reads: "When the police tell you staying silent makes you look guilty, they are really saying they think you are stupid enough to hang yourself for something else."
Because I have plenty of funds to buy what I want. Because if a gun is $300+$25 shipping or 3 for $750+$25 shipping I would rather be in for a cost of $258 each vs $325 each. I don't think its all that rare, many dealers list a price for 3+ or 5+ that is lower. In a perfect world you would have backup for each gun. A lot of people have a gun in the trunk of each car, so I would need 7 just for that. I'm not saying its normal, its a hobby and I go overboard will every hobby. I actually expected a phone call, I could have transfered one a week if I wanted to, it didn't seem like a big deal at the time. Now the dealer is not happy about the ATF visit, I feel bad about that, and the visit has me more worried than a phone call would have. It should really be indifferent to them, in NC the buyer has to have a CCW or Permit either way. I traded in one of the firearms to another dealer.
Last edited:
TexasRifleman
Moderator Emeritus
Find 3 bargains. Buy them. Keep one, sell 2 at a profit, use the profit to buy another gun.
Go back and read the law. That would be an acceptable thing, to make a profit selling guns to enhance a personal collection. Completely legal. We've become brainwashed in a way over the years to believe that if you make money selling a gun that black helicopters will come down around your house, but it's a completely legal thing to do and in fact it's specifically mentioned as not requiring a dealer license.
- Status
Similar threads
- Locked
