ATF visited my dealer over multiple handgun purchases

[duns]

Why should he? There is no law requiring that, and buying and selling guns is not a crime either.

What state is the OP in? Rules for private sales vary from state to state.

 

[nalioth]

If you live in a state where there is no limitation on how many guns you can purchase in a set amount of time and the two other guns were sold legally, on paper, with all the right forms. Then I don't see the issue.

I will assume for the sake of this discussion that "all the right forms" include a 4473. If this assumption is correct, this is NOT what this thread is about.

I can't understand why everyone thinks this is suspicious.

"The demonization of firearms is proceeding according to plan."

. . and the fact that schools don't teach anyone to think for themselves any more just goes to helping the propagandists toward this goal . .

 

[c5_nc]

What state is the OP in? Rules for private sales vary from state to state.

Nothing illegal has happened.

I'm NC. On handgun sales in my state the buyer must have a CCW or a permit issued to the sheriff in the county they live in. These are buyer requirements. Private party sellers have no record keeping requirements. A seller typically varifies age and NC residency via looking at a drivers license then looks at permit or CCW.

 

[X-Rap]

It can go either way as I see it. Back soon after the Oklahoma City Bombing I was tracked down through my employer by a friend I hadn't seen in a few yrs. over the chain of custody/ownership of a 357 mag revolver.
I was in AZ working and the friend was in NM and was calling for one of his former employees who had bought the gun from me and had transferred to Kingman AZ and subsequently sold the gun there.
Well if anybody remembers McVeigh spent time in Kingman and was arrested with a 357 mag revolver. I passed on what history on the gun in question I knew and never did hear why the panicked search was done.
I often speculate on why or who wanted to know the history on that gun, especially given some of the circumstances of the moment but I never heard another word about it.
My point is, whoever was investigating the gun took the word of the guy who bought it from me and that was it, the OP might never hear from the ATF or he might.

 

[duns]

Nothing illegal has happened.

I'm NC. On handgun sales in my state the buyer must have a CCW or a permit issued to the sheriff in the county they live in. These are buyer requirements. Private party sellers have no record keeping requirements. A seller typically varifies age and NC residency via looking at a drivers license then looks at permit or CCW.

While there is no record keeping requirement, keeping a copy of the driver's license and permit or CCW would seem a good idea so that you can prove you made the mandated checks. While not necessary in law, this could stop an investigation going any further. Since you are sure you didn't do anything illegal, there doesn't seem to be much to be worried about other than being inconvenienced by any enquiries that might take place.

 

[Deanimator]

And, if you just came into a large sum of money and decided to start buying AND SELLING guns with that money you have some explaining to do. I am sure the OP has done nothing wrong, but you must admit it raises flags.

My SOLE criterion for dealing with LEOs is the letter of the law, nothing more, nothing less.

If the law REQUIRES that I do X, I do X. If it forbids me from doing Y, I don't do Y. Anything else is mere wishful thinking on their part.

The law does NOT require me to talk to them without legal representation, and I certainly have no intention of doing so. If they don't like that, then they're merely a few more added to the billions of people in the world who've suffered disappointment.

 

[NavyLCDR]

Sure are a lot of nervous folks here! If I had done nothing wrong why would I pay a lawyer to tell the BATFE that when I could do it myself. Now if they are taking you in and reading you your rights it might be a different story. If you know you have not committed a crime and are not charged with a crime tell the truth and use the money you would have paid the lawyer to but more guns!

J.B.

I really don't understand the whole "talk to my lawyer" advice either, to be honest. But I also don't understand the tell the whole truth advice either. To me it's a simple case of just ****! I do not feel the need to explain my perfectly legal behavior to a LEO agency simply because they choose to ask me about it. Sirs, I have done nothing wrong, however I choose to exercise my right to not interact with you in a social encounter.

 

[iScream]

I think buying three guns of the same model at the same time and then selling two of them soon after would be the one case where I would make sure the sale went through a FFL. I'm not suggesting the Op did anything wrong and I don't even think there is anything fishy but with all the stories about home visits from the men in black after buying a couple guns in a short period of time, I would expect to pop up on their radar.

Personally, I think I would hand them copies of some type of paperwork from when I sold the guns and say very little. If they pressed I would tell them I'll have an attorney contact them. Though I would probably try to speak with an attorney before doing any of this.

Good luck to you. If you don't have any paperwork, I hope this doesn't end up costing you a bunch of money in attorney fees. Really sucks that this could end up costing you money for doing something completely legal.

-Chris

 

[TexasRifleman]

What state is the OP in? Rules for private sales vary from state to state.

I don't know of a state that requires private sellers to keep sales records. May be one, but I've never seen it.

 

[7.62 Nato]

That's like stopping 3 times while driving down the block because there is a stop sign at the end.
If you followed the law it doesn't matter how it "may" look to them.

 

[ljnowell]

Now suppose that B, living in this same city, later resells the gun to a third party, C, in this same city. Suppose that B denies ever having purchased these pistols, or even interacted with A. Maybe B just doesn't want to deal with the ATF, or maybe he committed some crime with them. And suppose C also commits some crime, and is caught, and thereby the ATF comes into possession of these pistols. C, quite accurately, may say that they were purchased from an individual in this city, but not be able to identify that individual.

Should the ATF then decide to make an issue of this, they'd possibly try to convince a jury that the OP, A, had sold the pistols directly to C as part of a straw purchase, and then lied to them by naming individual B. C would obviously have reason to deny this straw purchase, so his failure to identify A is meaningless. And they will argue that A lied to mislead them, and prevent them from discovering the straw purchase.


In this case, the OP would be much better off not having said anything without a lawyer.

You cherry picked my post in order to make your point, and that is unfair. I also posted in that same post, just after that:

OP, if they visit you, just politely tell them that your firearm purchases are none of their business. You purchased them all legally to further your collection. Wish them a nice day and send them on their way.

That being said, the OP committed no crime and the burden of proof lies upon the ATF. He doesnt have anything to worry about, because he didnt break any laws.

 

[TexasRifleman]

at being said, the OP committed no crime and the burden of proof lies upon the ATF. He doesnt have anything to worry about, because he didnt break any laws.

Since this is not happening in a border state I suspect the OP won't hear from ATF at all.

 

[BCCL]

I don't know of a state that requires private sellers to keep sales records. May be one, but I've never seen it.

Illinois, we have to keep the buyers FOID information for 10 years after the sale.

 

[Gunfighter123]

CottonMouth stated;

I don't see it as such a big deal. If I were the agent and you pulled the old "call my lawyer" bit it would make me realy start looking at you then. Just tell the truth, from what you told us you are good to go. If you act like you have something to hide they will probe further and further. "Talk to my lawyer" always meant "I'm guilty" to me and I'd beat the brush until I found what I was looking for.

J.B.

Sounds to me like you work for the ATF already !!!!

 

[nalioth]

I think buying three guns of the same model at the same time and then selling two of them soon after would be the one case where I would make sure the sale went through a FFL.

Except that doing so is not legally required. You are falling for the "demonization campaign". If I go out and get a winning lotto scratch ticket, I can turn around and buy 10 new pistols of the same make, model and caliber and keep the best of the lot and sell the rest directly (cash on the barrelhead) to anyone legally able to own them. This is not illegal unless I am making my living at it.

There are hundreds of C&R collectors here who regularly buy guns 10x or by the case - they keep the cherries and sell the rest. Do they require an 01 FFL to dispose of these extras? No.

Please read up on the actual laws, and don't fall for all these internet ". . . but my gun dealer's brothers ex-wife's hairstylist's pet parrot said that this is the way it is" posts.

I don't know of a state that requires private sellers to keep sales records. May be one, but I've never seen it.

Sure you do. The Land of Lincoln.

 

[Gunfighter123]

TexasRifleman stated;

I don't know of a state that requires private sellers to keep sales records. May be one, but I've never seen it.

Here in Illinois it is TEN YEARS for a private citizen ---- used to be 5 Years untill lately and YES , it is not JUST A CIVIL FINE but you could get JAIL TIME without the written records!!!!



EDIT --- another reason for me to tell "them" to talk with my lawyer ---- you "try to be nice" when they show up at your house and give them your records --- they lose some of them --- guess what happens ?? So now I keep records of my records !!!!! Govt. LOVES their paperwork as long as WE PAY FOR IT !!!

 

[TexasRifleman]

Cool. I had it in my head that all sales in IL had to go through an FFL.

Learned something new

 

[iScream]

Except that doing so is not legally required. You are falling for the "demonization campaign". If I go out and get a winning lotto scratch ticket, I can turn around and buy 10 new pistols of the same make, model and caliber and keep the best of the lot and sell the rest directly (cash on the barrelhead) to anyone legally able to own them. This is not illegal unless I am making my living at it.

I never said it is legally required, I said I would do it in this specific case where the situation will probably raise an eyebrow at the ATF. Seems like much cheaper insurance than keeping an attorney on retainer, as suggested by some.

-Chris

 

[DCR]

+1 to NavyLT - zealously exercise your 5th amendment right to remain silent, just like we zealously exercise our 2nd amendment rights to keep and bear arms. Then exercise your 6th amendment right to counsel, and if things go rodeo, the right to a speedy and public jury trial with the assistance of said attorney.

 

[Bubba613]

Suppose the OP, A, tells the ATF agents exactly who he sold the pistols to, an individual B, without any error.

Now suppose that B, living in this same city, later resells the gun to a third party, C, in this same city. Suppose that B denies ever having purchased these pistols, or even interacted with A. Maybe B just doesn't want to deal with the ATF, or maybe he committed some crime with them. And suppose C also commits some crime, and is caught, and thereby the ATF comes into possession of these pistols. C, quite accurately, may say that they were purchased from an individual in this city, but not be able to identify that individual.

Should the ATF then decide to make an issue of this, they'd possibly try to convince a jury that the OP, A, had sold the pistols directly to C as part of a straw purchase, and then lied to them by naming individual B. C would obviously have reason to deny this straw purchase, so his failure to identify A is meaningless. And they will argue that A lied to mislead them, and prevent them from discovering the straw purchase.

And maybe the ATF agents will take a dislike to him and frame him for gun running.

The basic issue is that the OP is a law-abiding citizen. He doesn't have an arrest record. He doesn't have anything to suggest that he is a liar, a cheat, or a criminal. Trying to persuade a jury of that is a fool's errand.
The scenario is absurd. I tend to agree he will hear nothing further about it.

 

[X-Rap]

I think in today's political/legal climate it is a good idea to at least have a bill of sale for private transactions. If it only has a name address and DL number you will have something to hand over to any LE who might question the disposition of a gun that was tracked to you.
You don't have to invite them in for tea but a simple please wait here and I will get you a copy of my bill of sale will maybe save you some grief.
I think the fact that they can review and investigate multiple sales is clear so if everyone behaves accordingly there shouldn't be any trouble, that and work through the political side to get this rule abolished.

 

[nalioth]

I think in today's political/legal climate it is a good idea to at least have a bill of sale for private transactions. If it only has a name address and DL number you will have something to hand over to any LE who might question the disposition of a gun that was tracked to you.
You don't have to invite them in for tea but a simple please wait here and I will get you a copy of my bill of sale will maybe save you some grief.
I think the fact that they can review and investigate multiple sales is clear so if everyone behaves accordingly there shouldn't be any trouble, that and work through the political side to get this rule abolished.

Please do not rock the boat, comrade. The train ride to Siberia is quite nice.

 

[Deanimator]

I think in today's political/legal climate it is a good idea to at least have a bill of sale for private transactions. If it only has a name address and DL number you will have something to hand over to any LE who might question the disposition of a gun that was tracked to you.

I'm not handing ANYTHING over without a valid search warrant.

 

[scchokedaddy]

a simple bill of sale with description and serial number on any weapon that you sell signed and dated would stop all the bull from batf. been doing it this way for years, takes only 5 min. if they do not want to give me one, then i do not need the weapon!!! same goes if they will not sign before buying from me or trading. after all there must be a reason why they don't want to sign, and thats reason enough for me to forget the deal. think about it before you flame me on this.

 

[X-Rap]

OK, I don't agree with the fact that buying 2 handguns sets of alarms in the ATF office. All the FFL's that I do business with strongly advise to not do it and I oblige them. Obviously there is some regulatory basis so all I am saying is you are probably obliged to provide information as to what happened to guns no longer in your position. I won't sell to anyone who is prohibited by age or residence and see no problem with giving away something that they will get and have a legal right to anyway.
It is the 2 gun purchase that sets this process in motion and that is what I am referring to in this thread. I am also strongly opposed to the regulation but this is not the hill I will die on with the ATF.