I would suggest it's not illegal to buy multiple guns for your collection nor to snap up a good bulk deal, look through them, decide which ones you want to keep and sell off the rest. Providing you are not making a living out of it without a license, should be OK?
ATF visited my dealer over multiple handgun purchases
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Carl N. Brown
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What will keep you on the "radar screen" is doing it often.
Not being able to account for the guns later looks, sounds and smells like straw purchase/street dealer. It is duck season out there: do not waddle or quack like a duck.
The "signs" of a straw purchaser/street dealer are pretty arbitrary (multiple gun purchases within x time frame) and can profile innocent parties (gun collectors/gun enthusiasts).
Legal dealers who are targeted by straw purchasers/street dealers do cooperate with ATF in targeting the straw purchasers/street dealers (of course Bloomberg & Co. anti-gun mayors try to screw that up by targeting the legal dealers).
If you see your friend John in a crowded airport lobby, you don't yell "Hi! Jack!" Such are the times we live in: stay off the radar.
True it's a good idea to stay off the radar but let's not get neurotic about it. I'm sure that for every 100 investigations into multiple gun purchases in a certain time frame, only a tiny fraction will be considered worth looking into further. The OP seems to have good explanations for his purchases and subsequent resales. They may not even visit him but if they do, it will probably go no further.
It's not a question of whether that's illegal. It's a question of whether it raises enough concern as a sign of something that might be illegal for ATF to take an interest in it. And it does. So they will ask questions to differentiate this legal transaction from a similar illegal one.
I agree. But the OP has nothing to worry about because he did nothing illegal so after a few questions (a few questions at most, maybe none at all), it will all be over.
Deanimator
Member
Exactly.
Leave the "banter" with LEOs for "Law & Order". They're not your friends, and if they're there on official business, they're not there to be your buddies. They will use whatever you say against you, whether you meant to say it or whether it indicates actual violations of law.
If anybody thinks that seeking legal counsel when confronted by LEOs is a "waste of money", they should ask themselves how Richard Jewell did trying to "help" the FBI, and how well they think the Duke Lacross team would have done on their own WITHOUT legal counsel.
I wouldn't perform eye surgery on myself, nor would I speak to LEOs without legal representation. And that goes doubly so for the BATFE.
Occam's Razor
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On the surface, investigating "unusual" activity that isn't overtly criminal in nature may seem unwarranted, but think about it. It isn't illegal for several foreigners of Arab nationality and decent to come to the U.S. to learn to fly passenger jets, but it did raise a red flag. How much different would our situation be today if it had actually been investigated?
Deanimator
Member
And if they WEREN'T terrorists they would be well within their rights, and very smart NOT to speak with LEOs without benefit of counsel.
The problem is not with LEOs LAWFULLY investigating possible violations of law. It's with them UNlawfully or deceptively doing so, and with those advising the unwary and the uneducated to NOT avail themselves of the means to know if the actions of LEOs are lawful (or sincere) or not.
Talking to LEOs without benefit of counsel is like sharing needles between drug addicts. The infinitesimal good that could come of it is vastly outweighed by the overwhelming possibility for harm.
Occam's Razor
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No argument there at all.
JohnBT
Member
"If you see your friend John in a crowded airport lobby, you don't yell "Hi! Jack!" "
Just before 9/11 I was at Friendship/BWI waiting with friends on a flight to Cancun. I was called over to a counter and asked something about my passport and paperwork - I've forgotten what precisely.
My buddy the lawyer and his wife were about 50 yards away with everybody else and I was asked if someone could verify my identity.
I yelled, "Hey Michael."
He yelled back, "What do you want?"
"Verify my name and address, etc."
You know what the clown said? He shouted again, "WHAT NAME ARE YOU TRAVELING UNDER THIS TIME?"
Oh that was a good one to straighen out.
Just before 9/11 I was at Friendship/BWI waiting with friends on a flight to Cancun. I was called over to a counter and asked something about my passport and paperwork - I've forgotten what precisely.
My buddy the lawyer and his wife were about 50 yards away with everybody else and I was asked if someone could verify my identity.
I yelled, "Hey Michael."
He yelled back, "What do you want?"
"Verify my name and address, etc."
You know what the clown said? He shouted again, "WHAT NAME ARE YOU TRAVELING UNDER THIS TIME?"
Oh that was a good one to straighen out.
Two scenarios:
!) ATF agents call.
"Mr. Bubba, we wanted to ask you about a couple of handguns you bought from XYZ Retailer last week."
"Sure, what do you want to know?"
"why did you buy 3 of the same gun?"
"I got a great deal on them, I tried them all, kept the best one for myself, and sold the rest off to friends."
"OK. Thanks."
2) ATF agent calls:
"Mr Bubba, we wanted to ask you about a couple of handguns you bought from XYZ retailer last week."
"I want my lawyer!"
Now, which scenario is likely to end the encounter right there?
stchman
Member
To Bubba613.
I would choose #2 but phrase it as such.
2) ATF agent calls:
"Mr Bubba, we wanted to ask you about a couple of handguns you bought from XYZ retailer last week."
"Sure, what do you want to know?"
"Why did you buy 3 of the same gun?"
"I got them at an excellent price."
"Ok, thanks."
Hopefully the encounter ends there.
Never volunteer ANY information. The ATF agent asked you why you bought 3 of the same gun, not what you did/are going to do with them.
If the ATF agent proceeded any further then I would tell them I will not answer any more questions without my attorney present.
Remember people don't go to jail for requesting that an agency observes their Constitutional rights.
I would choose #2 but phrase it as such.
2) ATF agent calls:
"Mr Bubba, we wanted to ask you about a couple of handguns you bought from XYZ retailer last week."
"Sure, what do you want to know?"
"Why did you buy 3 of the same gun?"
"I got them at an excellent price."
"Ok, thanks."
Hopefully the encounter ends there.
Never volunteer ANY information. The ATF agent asked you why you bought 3 of the same gun, not what you did/are going to do with them.
If the ATF agent proceeded any further then I would tell them I will not answer any more questions without my attorney present.
Remember people don't go to jail for requesting that an agency observes their Constitutional rights.
Deanimator
Member
3. "If you want to discuss this matter we can do so in my lawyer's office."
That will either shut it down, or shut down any attempt to buffalo you even if they still want to talk.
Get one thing straight. I don't CARE what they think about me. I care that they obey the law and respect my rights. They can like that or they can lump it. It's all the same to me.
Deanimator
Member
I'm sure people have, briefly. But it tends to have a less than salutory effect on the finances and the careers of those who cause it to happen.
Yer right. Be cooperative and truthful but not especially helpful.
The ATF has time, most people don't. Basically asking for an appointment with your lawyer doesn't cost them anything and will have them wondering.
Again, if they suspect illegal activity they will crawl around your rectum until they find it.
Occam's Razor
Member
Answer/Don't Answer questions. There are pros and cons to both approaches, but if you do chose to answer questions follow stchman's advice. Don't answer questions that they don't ask.
noob_shooter
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you sold 2 of the 3 you bought? ouch! I wouldn't be surprised if the ATF agents ask you to prove who you sold it to and if those buyers are felonies, you are one damn screwed up... I mean, seriously, they will assumed it was a straw purchase and unless you did a NIC on those buyers, you can't prove in court you didn't know those buyers were felonies..
i try to limit my gun purchases once every few months... And don't waste time with lawyers, you will just be in their radar more and will probably do you worse than good..
i try to limit my gun purchases once every few months... And don't waste time with lawyers, you will just be in their radar more and will probably do you worse than good..
Deanimator
Member
And if you get cataracts, don't waste time on eye doctors, just remove them yourself.
noob_shooter
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i don't know guys.. but even if the law says i can buy as many guns as i want per day/week and sell them, i still wouldn't ... why? Sure, you didn't do anything wrong, but the time wasted dealing with the ATF agents is not worth it....
It's like getting a parking ticket for $15 because the parker checker didn't see my night sticker, no way in hell i will arrange a time to go to court just to get $15 out of the way...
Even if legal, some things are just not worth the time and hassle...
It's like getting a parking ticket for $15 because the parker checker didn't see my night sticker, no way in hell i will arrange a time to go to court just to get $15 out of the way...
Even if legal, some things are just not worth the time and hassle...
noob_shooter
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now that's different...but i won't go there.. let's stay on topic..
noob_shooter
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i live in WI and i sold 1 rifle so far and i did this... scanned it and uploaded to my server so it can never go missing... just incase..
Deanimator
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You're as likely to adequately protect your own legal interests without benefit of counsel as you are to perform eye surgery on yourself.
noob_shooter
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some of you guys make things too hard.... some of you guys acted/talked all this and that about lawyers and stuff as if a visit from the ATF is a walk in the park, but if it actually happened, you guys wouldn't feel the same..LOL!..
talking is easy, but walking could be a whole different journey... why make things harder than it really is?
I go by one rule: Never buy more than 1 gun a month... While you guys are trying to exercise your rights and it's a good thing, you guys are also wasting time and $$$ while I'm out shooting and enjoying my day......LOL! Not like the guns i want will disappear if i don't buy all of them that day or week... chill out and take a break.. i would rather wait a month to buy a gun than waste $$$ and time in court/ with the ATF or with my lawyer(s)...
better safe than sorry,..
If you did something just tell the truth, don't embelish or offer information that was not asked. They already know what you did or they wouldn't be there. If you are going to be detained or arrested, there is plenty of time for your attorney to meet you at the facility. It may just be a verification process, if you bought them legally for a legal use, then you don't need an attorney. It may be that someone used it in the commision of a crime before or after your purchase. Don't hypothesize just answer the question honestlly. If you went over the limit allowed, you won't be the first or the last. If you appear to be hiding something, you will probablly need that attorney.If not you probablly won't.
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