BATF tears me apart over legal multiple handgun purchases

[ancient_philosophy]

You know, I told this story over on another board, …sad to say, more than a few said I was a liar, however its 100% true.


1st, I live in the Kentucky, an EXTREMELY pro-gun state. (I wont say which city)

2nd, I have relatives who are police, and have (relatively) great respect for ATF.

3rd, I have NO criminal history, none, ….period….and I have worked in a few gun shops


2 years ago I ran into some serious extra $$$$, I bought a lot of multiple handguns ,….of course I know if you buy more than 1 handgun a week, the dealer has to fill out a MULTIPLE FORM on you and mail it out to the ATF……….

A call from the ATF at the end of the year….”we want you to come to our office….little talk”………….. I said no…..

“well, what the heck are you doing with buying 30+ glocks last year.????”

Me::: “well, im a glock fanatic….come on over and you can peek in the safe and see them” (by the way, I know this ATF agent, ive met him year or so ago on something irrelevant to anything wrong I ever did).

Agent::”well, its not going to raise in value, theyre only glocks, why the hell do you need so many????”

…….back and forth for about 20 mins……..thankfully I knew a lot of police officers he could use as a reference on me……which he did , I assume…..

…….OF COURSE……the beef is……you could buy 1 handgun a week, every week for a year…….but when youre out buying multiple handguns at a time…..several times……

as the ATF agent told me, end of the year, a computer kicks back a “multiples list” of all the local yokels who are buying “too many damn handguns”……….

Seems I was #1 in this city….which is the largest one in the state…………..

Now….i KNOW WELL , that 2 of my rich friends buy WAY MORE handguns per year than myself from dealers…but NOT multiple handguns within one week.

The other nonsense of this list is, I could have bought 2000 AK-47s last year, but that would NEVER register…….why? theyre not handguns……. Isn’t that great……


***I left out about 30 mins of conversation between him and me, of him chewing on me as to why the heck I have a safe full of handguns, many glocks…….


This “multiples list” is just nonsense, if I was anyway inclined to do something illegal, such as multiple straw purchases……id just shop each gun shop, 1 handgun from each shop…. Per week……or any one of a number of things……..the only info that list is kicking back info on, are legal gun purchases, not illegal straw-purchases from people smart enough to know how to very easily avoid their name showing up on such a list.

****By the way, ive spoken to this ATF agent somewhat recently....i get along fine with him, and he knows about genuine gun-nuts who buy and swap a lot of handguns at local shops, and certainly he knows I am one of those

 

[mountainclmbr]

Civil Rights Violation Lawsuit. My first thought.

 

[Geno]

I experienced similar to this at the local county sheriff department when I went to register #26. Most were not multiple purchase, but if they were, so what?

I see it this way. If I teach an extra graduate course so I can buy a pistol, the government gets extra money from my income taxes, the state also, plus they get sales tax. To boot, I contribute to keeping American's employed.



Doc2005

 

[ancient_philosophy]

ehhhh, what violation.....other than giving me the 3rd degree, ...i dont know what they did which was illegal....

did i mention they wanted me to "come down for a visit"....???

and i DID invite him to come over and "take a peek in the safe that all those handguns were there".


there was something else he (ATF agent) asked me that really was crude and ticked the heck out of me ............but i cant for the life of me remember what it was.......


*!*!*! This is the gods-honest truth, my former main gun-shop, which i bought so many handguns from, would literally get ticked off when i bought multiple handguns....or anyone for that matter, which i would witness...

even though he was 100% on the level with the law, he was scared to death of the ATF eyeballing him over his multiples list..........

as he often said "its those damn multiples (handgun purchases) that kill you and me".

 

[DKSuddeth]

The fabulous and wonderful thing about having a phone conversation with an ATF agent is that if YOU don't like the way the conversation is going....YOU can just hang up the phone.

 

[Snake Eyes]

more than a few said I was a liar

The major reason I have never posted my story about the BATF coming to visit.

”we want you to come to our office….little talk”

Took me $1500 in attorneys fees to let me to agree to come to their office, as opposed to them coming into my home.

ATF agent told me, end of the year, a computer kicks back a “multiples list”

My visit occurred 1 week before Christmas.

Civil Rights Violation Lawsuit.

The government has unlimited time and unlimited funds. I don't. Rock on, Don Quixote!

All I'm willing to say is this: Two agents showed up at my door at 8:00 am. They lied about why they were there. When I refused entry, they offered to get a warrant, kick in the door at 3:00 am and trash the house.

I lawyered up.

I received a letter of apology from the local office chief.

Lesson learned: GET A FREAKING LAWYER! ABROGATE ZERO RIGHTS!

 

[Ratzinger_p38]

About 4 months ago I bought 2 handguns in one week (I was going to get a rifle and a pistol, but opted for the P38 when I saw what a good deal it was) and find out AFTERWARDS about the multi-form.

If I would have known about it (gun shop owner didnt say anything) I would have waited a week on the P38. No need to put my name directly on the .gov's list. Too late for that now.

 

[HiroProX]

Best advice I've ever heard about dealing with the ATF in any capacity, lawyer up.

That advice comes from a friend who is former ATF.

 

[hexidismal]

The last time I talked with a local ffl I was using here I was told a very similar story. In fact in that story it was also a large number of glocks purchased that were in question. In this instance, same as yours, it was a guy who was simply a glock fanatic and wanted to have a few of every model. He went though this ffl that I was talking to for the transfers of a large number of them, and apparently it was a big mess in the aftermath with the atf. In his case too I think it was worked out fairly easily in the end.

 

[rkh]

No need to lawyer up. The agent was just fishing for evidence of criminal behavior, and it's not a crime to buy a ton of glocks.

Here's how to handle the conversation next time:

ATF goon: We've been receiving reports that you've purchased an unusually large number of handguns recently. We're concerned that they aren't all for your personal use and that you've been supplying false information on.... [SNIP]

You: That's very interesting, agent so-and-so. I appreciate your attempt to perform your investigative function. Know, however, that I know that it is not a crime to purchase handguns in multiples in the state of ANYSTATE. If you can produce a WARRANT, I'd be delighted to give you a guided tour of my gun safe. In the meantime, if you've got any further questions why don't you forward them on to my lawyer? He's kind of a hardass, and gets irritated with me if I start making statements on the record without assistance of counsel. Beyond that, I have nothing else to say to you.

ATF goon: *gnashing of teeth*

*click*

Or, you can just tell him that you don't want to talk to him and hang up. It's probably best to let him down easy, though. For the most part, however, there's no duty to talk to cops beyond providing basic identifying information if requested.

Certainly don't let some idiot ATF agent waste half an hour of your time and rattle your nerves.

 

[SomeKid]

ancient_p, if your story is true, take some advice. Never under any circumstances even if the ATF agent is your wife offer to let them come have a peek.

My policy is pretty simple for dealing with ATF on the phone.

Find out what they want. (Since I have an FFL I can't just give them the finger like I would prefer to do and would have prior to getting it.)

If it concerns my C&R (unlikely to ever happen, I never have heard of any other C&R holders getting called) deal with it as quickly as and simply as possible, at their office, not my place. Say as little as possible. If they start acting in any way that makes me nervous even in the slightly, I tell them I am done speaking with them, and leave. If unable to leave, pure silence for them right after I make it clear I am not giving up any rights, demand a lawyer, etc.

If it does not concern my FFL, they hear a click.

Remember, the ATF is America's Gestapo. Do not trust them.

 

[stevelyn]

I have relatives who are police and have (relatively) great respect for the ATF.

Associating the sturmtruppen of the BATFEces with legitimate law enforcement is an insult to those of us in LE and is like calling the Waffen SS the Department of Public Safety.

 

[ancient_philosophy]

i remember an FBI agent told me once that
"ATF got the agents the FBI rejected"
he said it , not me......

i dont mind the ATF, ....but when they PURPOSEFULLY go fishing for busts amongst the honest people, JUST TO MEET their quota of... "hey...i busted some folks",....thats what burns me.


when there are no gun-crimes going on, they try to invent some 'action' for themselves by baiting some unsuspecting law abiding citizen.......and you KNOW they do this.

there was an ATF agent (it was obvious) doing "undercover" work at the Knob Creek Machinegun shoot in KY back in 2004, who was selling little baggies with glock 18 selector levers in them. ..

he was even advertising them for sale on a placard on his backpack...

what gave him away??? was it he neato-Govt-approved-haircut,...or that immistakable aura they carry around....

he showed it to me (like a crack dealer showing me some 'rocks' in a baggie)....

said "you interested".

i laughed and said "hheh, you kidding??!!! wheres the guy with the cuffs to arrest me???"

 

[rkh]

A Glock 18 selector lever alone wouldn't cause you any problems.

 

[nemoaz]

i remember an FBI agent told me once that "ATF got the agents the FBI rejected" he said it , not me......

Humorous. I always heard it was that the FBI got the accountants that Ernst and Young rejected. Nice guys and all, but your average Feeb has never arrested anyone, never made a traffic stop, never chased a criminal, never had to draw their weapon to defend themselves or another, and never executed a high risk warrant. They're real good to have around if you have to check financial records or write a warrant, though. And they look SO GOOD in those suits.

Ancient Philosophy: I think you did fine. You obviously allayed the investigators concern and have gotten no further grief. Hard to say what would have happened if you sounded more like a criminal. The thing about telling them to call your attorney is that your attorney charges by the hour for those calls.

 

[JohnBT]

"BATF tears me apart"

It was one phone call. I hope nothing bad ever happens to you.

And folks, what's with the name calling? Is it necessary to resort to using names like goon, sturmtruppen of the BATFEces, America's Gestapo to make a point?

John

 

[Geno]

I don't see what the deal is! The agent apparently did nothing more, and nothing less than his job. You weren't arrested, you weren't hauled-in a tortured with thumb-screws.

I think many people over-look the fact that maybe they wanted to see if you had developed any hidden hatred of authority, or if you were repressing anti-government sentiments, which after enough "hounding" by an ATF agent might surface?

When the matter of pointing out my purchases happened to me, I simply smiled and said, "Wow...I don't have even close to that many remaining. Those that were defective were sold to an FFL-holder, and those that were unconfortable were sold to an FFL holder. Do you want to up-date your list of the remaining pistols, because it isn't even half of what you just told me."

She wasn't interested. Then, she summoned some superior, showed him something on the monitor and he shugged his shoulders and said something like "So?" and walked off.

Maybe the shop itself called the agent in oreder to remain on their good side and asked them to check you out. We don't know real motive. But, I do think this is too much cloak and dagger here.

Edit to add: I agree. We're seeing to much name-calling.

 

[ozwyn]

Sounds like your overall disposition with this fellow is not overly hostile per say.

Just remind the agent of a few things:

1) he has to bring his own ammo if he wants to play with your collection
2) anything of yours he shoots, he cleans to YOUR satisfaction
3) If he intends to inspect your collection, he needs to bring paper targets and possibly beer or steaks for the grill

Defuse with humor.

 

[Cacique500]

i DID invite him to come over and "take a peek in the safe that all those handguns were there".

No warrant, no peeky.

Oh, and Ozwyn, LMAO!

 

[obxned]

I usually can only afford one gun at a time, but have a piece of property for sale and was going to buy three when it sold. Now I'll just do it 1/week for three weeks.

 

[Neo-Luddite]

The government has unlimited time and unlimited funds. I don't. Rock on, Don Quixote!

I'll credit you with that one, Snake Eyes--that's the quote for the day!

 

[Thumper]

Let me see if I understand...

A BATF agent you happen to know gave you a phone call about buying multiple handguns, am I correct?

That may be irritating, I suppose, but I would hardly consider it "tearing you apart."

 

[rkh]

I don't see what the deal is! The agent apparently did nothing more, and nothing less than his job.

The guy might have been doing his job, but his job was to cold call the OP and harass him into confessing a crime without the benefit of ANY evidence that a crime had been committed. Some of these games the ATF plays are ridiculous.


The "doing his job" defense doesn't work for telemarketers, and it doesn't work for the ATF.

 

[tulsamal]

I've had the multiple handgun sheet filled out on me three times in the last ten years. One copy to ATF, one copy to the county sheriff. After they will filled out and mailed, never heard word one about them again.

I was in the US Army. They measured and recorded everything about me. I have a CCW in OK and they did a background check and fingerprints. I have an OK teaching certificate. Background check and fingerprints. I have a C&R FFL. More paperwork. I have an OK Security Guard license. Testing, background check, fingerprints.

Let's just say they know where to find me if they want me. The multiple handgun sheet doesn't make things any more difficult on my end!

Gregg

 

[Whirlwind06]

Ok well I have to ask.
Did you buy all the same model of Glocks?
One of every caliper and configuration E.g 26, 19 17?
I think if you bought 30+ GLock 19s or 17s that would send a red flag up to anybody.