eastwood44mag
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- Oct 25, 2005
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- 1,027
My only multiple was a pair of Rugers, one .45 and one .44. Signed the paperwork the day I turned 21. No one seemed to care.
BATF tears me apart over legal multiple handgun purchases
- Thread starter ancient_philosophy
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dralarms
Member
Now you have got me worried, I have done multiple purchases a bunch of times over the last year or so.
If they call me I'll tell them the truth, "I bought them for ahmed" ROTFLOL
Actually when I buy guns it's usually after a get paid for a large job so I have a bonus and can afford to "splurge"
If they call me I'll tell them the truth, "I bought them for ahmed" ROTFLOL
Actually when I buy guns it's usually after a get paid for a large job so I have a bonus and can afford to "splurge"
Well if you were to ask me, that's a damn fine question - granted, without hte context of the rest of your conversations with him, his harassment and crude/aggressive behavior (which should get him reprimanded, but is more likely to get him promoted).
The reason it's a good question is because a large purchase of identical or nearly identical items could (and probably does, to some extent - depending on how identical they are) mean one of two things: criminal intent, or mental illness. The mental illness may not (and probably isn't) dangerous - we all have mental illness to some degree and fashion or another - but popular perception is that anyone who thinks or acts differently/abnormally is a potentially dangerous nutcase who's about to go off.
You're all familiar with the "quiet, nice loner" stereotype - same basic thing, I think.
]
"we want you to come to our office….little talk”
Can you tell me why?
"We noticed you bought a LOT of handguns in the past year"
So, you're alledging that I've bought a lot of handguns in the past year?
"Yes, and we have paperwork to prove it, and we'd like you to come down and talk to us about it."
So you're alledging that I purchased handguns and filled out the requisite paperwork, what do we need to talk about?
"Well we'd just like to know WHY you need so many handguns..."
So, what part of your inquiry requires my presence in your office, that you can't just ask me over the phone?
"...."
Is there one of my purchases that you're concerned about?
"...."
Give me a second, let me check and see if they're all here (brief pause). Yup, they're all here. What was the point of all this again?
"We just want to know why you think you need so MANY, after all, they're just Glocks, they're not going up in value..."
Now I don't know if you're questioning my taste in handguns, or my investment acumen. Either way, I don't believe those are any concern of law enforcement, and I really don't have time for social chit-chat. Now, unless there is a legal matter you need to talk to me about, I think we're done here.
"We'd just like you to come down to our office, and answer a few questions."
Questions can be asked over the phone, and so far you haven't asked me anything about any kind of legal matter. If by "questions" you mean something other than simply verifying that I legally purchased the handguns in question, I'm going to have to refer you to my attorney.
"...."
So if you want his name and number, I'll pull his card out of my wallet and read it to you, otherwise, I'll be wishing you a good day, sir.
"...."
Goodbye (click)
In fairness to the American Gestapo, the reason for the multiple purchase form rule had its origins in some shady dealers that were selling large quantities of guns to individuals who were passing them on to gang bangers who could not legally buy them.
I have no doubt the form requirement slowed down the gang bangers for all of about ten seconds while they figured out they just needed to spread the purchases around some.
I doubt there has ever been a real criminal ever prosecuted over this rule. Its like a lot of laws. The intent seems to be good, but the implementation leaves a lot to be desired, and often only those who have no evil intent get snared, while it has little effect on those who do have evil intent.
And keep in mind, it is always safer to hassle people who are not violent criminals, but might have a lapse in judgment, or unintentionally violent some arcane rule, than it is to go after violent criminals. And you get the same number of brownie points. So, if you are an average LEO, who are you going to concentrate on? Joe Citizen who would never consider harming a cop, or Joe Gangbanger who would shoot you in the back without a second thought.
I have no doubt the form requirement slowed down the gang bangers for all of about ten seconds while they figured out they just needed to spread the purchases around some.
I doubt there has ever been a real criminal ever prosecuted over this rule. Its like a lot of laws. The intent seems to be good, but the implementation leaves a lot to be desired, and often only those who have no evil intent get snared, while it has little effect on those who do have evil intent.
And keep in mind, it is always safer to hassle people who are not violent criminals, but might have a lapse in judgment, or unintentionally violent some arcane rule, than it is to go after violent criminals. And you get the same number of brownie points. So, if you are an average LEO, who are you going to concentrate on? Joe Citizen who would never consider harming a cop, or Joe Gangbanger who would shoot you in the back without a second thought.
Marshall
Member
I've bought multiples twice in my life, only two each time. I've never been hassled or questioned. That's not much though. Silly rule, I understand it, but silly nonetheless.
LOL
LOLloganoutpost
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- Joined
- Jan 27, 2006
- Messages
- 10
ATF Handgun Multiplies A couple of quick facts
Having been an ffl holder in the same state as the original poster for several years I would like to throw out a few things about our multiple sales form. That we are required to fill out.
The form is filled out for multple handgun purchases at one time or during five consectuive business days. So if you purchased one last Thursday and then bought one today, Friday I would still have to do a multiple due to the 4th being a Holiday. We send one copy to ATF usually by fax and one copy to local or state police in the place where the sale took place. So if you were from louisville and bought the gun at our store in Oak Grove Ky the local copy would be sent to the Christian County SO but if it took place at a louisville gun show it would go to Louisville Metro and one copy for our records that is attached to your 4473. It is only for each ffl and their is no centralized data base for us to check. So you can buy 1 handgun in each store in the sate and you will not have a multiple filled out.
Also we are asked by ATF to not reveal that we have to fill the form out. And most dealers do not be cause it would hurt sales. The guy decides to wait on the second gun and then spends the money on a new gas grill is an example of that.
In my years of doing this it does seem that ATF knows what they are looking for. I have not had a customer that has been contacted by ATF when they have bought a few mulitples but we did have some customers contacted when they had bought several jennings raven and other cheap guns that we got from a police dept. confiscation. They did not get in trouble but were questioned about it and it was spring when they were called about a month after they were bought. From talking with fellow dealers it seems ATF is looking at certain calibers and brands of guns such as .25, .32 .380 and large purchases of similar weapons. Another shop in the same area was investigated for selling a large qty of high-points to one gentleman. Seems the guns showed up at the Canadian Border. Not to suggest I like ATF anymore than the next guy but they are doing their job and I am sure some of these investigations do end in charges for dealing without a license. Which is part of their job whether we like it or not. And for the record I do not want to see anyone charged with that.
For the occasional mutiple purchase or for the collector who purchases even large qty of handguns that have collectibility such as Colt's 1911's or early Smith's or just a lot of varied guns does not seem to get calls. We sold 28 handguns on one purchase to a gentleman (it was a transfer from another dealer and the guns had been in a fire so they were cheap for what they were but ATF did not know this and he was not called). But I can see were 30 plus Glocks would get a call. Doesn't seem like they made a big deal out of it either for that matter other than the phone banter and it appears to have went both ways.
Having been an ffl holder in the same state as the original poster for several years I would like to throw out a few things about our multiple sales form. That we are required to fill out.
The form is filled out for multple handgun purchases at one time or during five consectuive business days. So if you purchased one last Thursday and then bought one today, Friday I would still have to do a multiple due to the 4th being a Holiday. We send one copy to ATF usually by fax and one copy to local or state police in the place where the sale took place. So if you were from louisville and bought the gun at our store in Oak Grove Ky the local copy would be sent to the Christian County SO but if it took place at a louisville gun show it would go to Louisville Metro and one copy for our records that is attached to your 4473. It is only for each ffl and their is no centralized data base for us to check. So you can buy 1 handgun in each store in the sate and you will not have a multiple filled out.
Also we are asked by ATF to not reveal that we have to fill the form out. And most dealers do not be cause it would hurt sales. The guy decides to wait on the second gun and then spends the money on a new gas grill is an example of that.
In my years of doing this it does seem that ATF knows what they are looking for. I have not had a customer that has been contacted by ATF when they have bought a few mulitples but we did have some customers contacted when they had bought several jennings raven and other cheap guns that we got from a police dept. confiscation. They did not get in trouble but were questioned about it and it was spring when they were called about a month after they were bought. From talking with fellow dealers it seems ATF is looking at certain calibers and brands of guns such as .25, .32 .380 and large purchases of similar weapons. Another shop in the same area was investigated for selling a large qty of high-points to one gentleman. Seems the guns showed up at the Canadian Border. Not to suggest I like ATF anymore than the next guy but they are doing their job and I am sure some of these investigations do end in charges for dealing without a license. Which is part of their job whether we like it or not. And for the record I do not want to see anyone charged with that.
For the occasional mutiple purchase or for the collector who purchases even large qty of handguns that have collectibility such as Colt's 1911's or early Smith's or just a lot of varied guns does not seem to get calls. We sold 28 handguns on one purchase to a gentleman (it was a transfer from another dealer and the guns had been in a fire so they were cheap for what they were but ATF did not know this and he was not called). But I can see were 30 plus Glocks would get a call. Doesn't seem like they made a big deal out of it either for that matter other than the phone banter and it appears to have went both ways.
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