Contacted by BATFE today!!

[DHJenkins]

Again, making them do their job and standing on your rights is never a bad thing. I have no obligation, moral or civil, to make their job easier.

It's "their job" to interview people. How are you "making them do their job" if your hindering them from doing said job?

It's like telling a mechanic "fix my car", then refusing to drive it to the shop. "Why should I make his job easier?"

 

[Ed Ames]

This will come down to the various perceptions of duty.

One school of thought is that you have a duty to mankind. It is your obligation to take actions when they make everyone safer, even at personal risk.

Another school says you have a duty to the fatherland. It is your obligation to assist the fatherland even at personal risk.

These threads always devolve into supporters of those two schools arguing past each other.

If you are a fatherlander then OF COURSE you think you should assist the government in finding crime even if it is possible you will be deemed the criminal.

If you are a mankinder then OF COURSE you think you should make the state play by the rules if for no other reason than to normalize "Not talking to you without council" so that law enforcement has no grounds to think that people demanding their rights are always suspects, even at risk to yourself.

I won't say both sides are valid but until you start convincing the other side that your premise is sound you are just wasting bits.

 

[Deanimator]

Our forefathers were willing to give up everything, including their lives, to create a better country.

Our forefathers were willing to give up everything, including their lives, to create a better country where no man could be compelled to give evidence against himself, especially inadvertently.

 

[Deanimator]

I won't say both sides are valid but until you start convincing the other side that your premise is sound you are just wasting bits.

If just one person is prevented from giving up his own rights via the mis or disinformation of others, nothing said here is wasted.

 

[Rockwell1]

I just finished watching Dr. Duane's video again. I have come to the conclusion that if he ( with all his cites, and quotes and experience) can't convince you that it is never, under any circumstances, in your best interest to talk to the police, nothing that you hear on an internet gunboard is going to convince you either.

People are who they are, if you're born a sheep I can shear you and put a wolfskin on you and teach you to howl at the moon but when the chips are down you will bleat like a lamb because no matter what else I did you're still a sheep .

 

[DHJenkins]

Evidence of what? That I legally own what I say I own?

Gosh, I can see how that would be horrible.

EDIT - Ed's right. It's a sense of community vs. selfishness. I'm out of this one.

 

[Deanimator]

It's "their job" to interview people.

It's MY job to protect my freedom, rights and finances by not allowing them to interview ME without an attorney present.

 

[Deanimator]

Evidence of what?

You have no idea. That's why you never talk without a lawyer present.

 

[Ed Ames]

If just one person is prevented from giving up his own rights via the mis or disinformation of others nothing said here is wasted

I dislike the "If just one" argument because it is so often used to support everyone giving up something (like their RKBA) to reduce some marginal harm. Anyway....

The problem is that the fatherlanders (and there are a bunch of them) won't be prevented. The fence sitters will break mostly to ease unless they believe it is a duty to do otherwise, and simply arguing they don't have to comply doesn't impart a sense of duty. You may convince a few (proto) mankinders that they are not alone and really should do what you say next time the situation comes up.... but that pales in comparison to swaying fatherlanders to your position.

Edit

EDIT - Ed's right. It's a sense of community vs. selfishness.

No, Ed's right that it is two very different perceptions of community.

 

[Deanimator]

but that pales in comparison to swaying fatherlanders to your position.

I don't care any more about them than I care about anti-gunners. I just don't want the uninformed to think that they don't actually HAVE rights against self-incrimination. If they CHOOSE knowingly to forfeit their rights, I consider it foolish, but their choice to make.

 

[Deanimator]

It's like telling a mechanic "fix my car", then refusing to drive it to the shop. "Why should I make his job easier?"

No, it's like a mechanic "inspecting" your car without your permission and you being on the hook for any "repairs" that HE says you need, without getting a second opinion.

 

[runrabbitrun]

I just finished watching Dr. Duane's video again. I have come to the conclusion that if he ( with all his cites, and quotes and experience) can't convince you that it is never, under any circumstances, in your best interest to talk to the police, nothing that you hear on an internet gunboard is going to convince you either.

Ditto to that.

 

[kingpin008]

What happened to you that the idea of being helpful and a contributing member of your community is so abhorrant?

What happened to you to be so willing to waive your rights and be so "helpful" to an organization that doesn't have any real interest in being your friend?

Because let's get that clear - while the agents who visited the OP were friendly and respectful, they were not there on a friendly visit to have a beer and catch up on local gossip. They were there attempting to investigate a possible crime. That means that they think that the OP was a possible suspect in that crime. Which means that the questions asked were not harmless curiosity, they were an interrogation. And that's not something a free American is required to submit to without representation.

 

[jackdanson]

Yes, like I've said, the agents were first class, and to clarify, I do not believe that they did any thing wrong, illegal, or even immoral from the time they pulled up to my house till the time they left.

Of course they were, they were trying to collect evidence, that is THEIR JOB! They aren't "nice guys", they are trying to see if you are doing something wrong without any probable cause whatsoever.

Yes, like I've said, the agents were first class, and to clarify, I do not believe that they did any thing wrong, illegal, or even immoral from the time they pulled up to my house till the time they left.

Working for an agency who is set up to violate the constitution of the United States is both illegal and wrong.

Even as nice as they were being my heart was beating a mile a minute. they were so non threatening in fact, at one point I wanted to tell them what they wanted to know, but I just could not.

Yeah, it's a stressful situation... one that should have never happened.

The two guys showing up on the doorstep aren't to blame, and although I hate to use the phrase, they really are just "doing their jobs".

Screw that, I wouldn't do that job if you put a gun to my head. They aren't forced to take that job, they can quit any time.

Please point out in this thread where either 'visited poster' was badgered.

Uhhh, the part where they showed up... they were only nice because it suited their cause... collecting evidence.

The OP handled this better than I would have.......

 

[Ed Ames]

Let's also be clear... waiving your rights, even though you think you safely can, IS NOT A HELPFUL CONTRIBUTION TO YOUR COMMUNITY.

It can create an expectation that innocent people will be helpful and guilty people will refuse to comply. That correlation may be normal but it is not absolute... it can be false in both directions because it is nothing but an observed correlation. There is nothing forcing the correlation.

The use of a loose correlation in determining guilt can lead to guilty people going free (because they apparently complied and their behavior correlates with "not guilty") and innocent people going to jail (because they exercised their rights and the experience of the officers says that only criminals do that).

You may think you are helping your community when you surrender your rights. You are not. You may or may not be helping yourself (as many will point out, LEOs are not friendly no matter how they act) but you are harming one of the cornerstones of our community -- the ability to exercise individual rights without fear of reprisal.

 

[JohnBT]

"The OP handled this better than I would have....... "

No doubt. I don't doubt you for a minute. How do you treat the meter reader and the mailman? Just curious.


And what are "swaying fatherlanders"? Sounds like some sort of German hulu dancers or drunks or something.

Boy oh boy, these are some fun threads today.

John

 

[Rockwell1]

I'm not sure how to bring this into the conversation but, what is the mindset that can look at all the evidence, hear distinguished lawyers and the police themeselves tell you don't talk to the police (FYI Dr. Duane advocates making no statement to the police what so ever until you go to trial with or with out a lawyer) and says "Oh well I just want to be a good citizen, I'll talk" ?

German hulu dancers

I think you mean hula dancers hulu is an alien plot to destroy your mind and you aint soup yet

 

[Ed Ames]

And what are "swaying fatherlanders"? Sounds like some sort of German hulu dancers or drunks or something.

Don't know. I did a google and can't find it anywhere. Maybe there was more to the sentence?

 

[springmom]

Yes, like I've said, the agents were first class, and to clarify, I do not believe that they did any thing wrong, illegal, or even immoral from the time they pulled up to my house till the time they left.

Even as nice as they were being my heart was beating a mile a minute. they were so non threatening in fact, at one point I wanted to tell them what they wanted to know, but I just could not.

Your rights: use'em or lose'em

I can see myself having that same temptation. I'm a generally nice person; I like to be helpful, and I'm supportive of law enforcement. Unless law enforcement decides it'd like to start digging around in my private stuff.

I'm sure that to some, it seems you're being stubborn for no reason. But that last sentence is bang on: and an awful lot of men (and women) have died over the last two centuries defending the right for me to be secure in my home and my person from "fishing expeditions" by law enforcement.

Jan

 

[eye5600]

Here is what I wonder about this kind of situation. The ATF guys wanted to see the actual guns and read the serial numbers. Fine, and suppose you agree to cooperate. "Have a seat at the picnic table under the apple tree and I'll bring out the pistols and my copies of the paperwork."

Are they going to let you go unlock your safe alone? If they calmly sit under your tree, they are vulnerable to you shooting them from a window, or bursting out the door with a Colt in each had. It's similar to a traffic stop. A thousand go smoothly, and then one turns into a gun fight.

Or are they going to stand on opposite sides of your lawn with hands on gun butts waiting nervously for your to return with three unloaded (they hope) weapons?

IT guys like me don't have such exciting options.

By the way, I would keep have copies of all the paperwork available and not show the originals. I really would hate have the originals get out my hands.

 

[nitetrane98]

My favorite thing to do for the lawyer up crowd was to hand him my cell phone and say, "Of course, sure, no problem, we'll wait." Or perhaps, "Who is your lawyer, sir, let's see if we can get him on the line right now."
Absolutely amazing how many folks that want to talk to their lawyer have neglected to pay the retainer. Imagine that!!

Hey, you bluff, we bluffed, sometimes you called the bluff, sometimes we did.

 

[Rockwell1]

My favorite thing to do for the lawyer up crowd was to hand him my cell phone and say, "Of course, sure, no problem, we'll wait." Or perhaps, "Who is your lawyer, sir, let's see if we can get him on the line right now."

Once you get my lawyer on the phone ( and you will) I'm still not making a statement

 

[Ed Ames]

How is that calling a bluff?

If they answer, "I'll have to find one" they've still made the request and you've still got to honor it if your oath means anything.

 

[psyopspec]

Not cooperating with authorities sure works out well in the various slums, ghettos & gang-ridden immigrant communities throughout the U.S.

Ever seen an episode of cops? In case you haven't, it usually goes something like this:

1) Suspect is pulled over for what could be a minor infraction.

2) Officer on scene asks them if they've been using or if they have any drugs in the car.

3) If suspect is reluctant, officer assures them that "The only way I can help you is if you're honest with me." This usually leads to...

4) Consent to search. Cop finds paraphernalia.

5) Suspect declares that the paraphernalia found "is not mine! This is my cousin's car/my friend rode with me a few days ago and must have left it/I have no idea where that came from."

6) Suspect is arrested.

The show would be a lot more boring if everyone was aware that they could shut up, not consent to any searches, and get an attorney. As far as being a good member of a community goes, I would give that tip-o-the hat to the one who sets the example of holding up individual rights to his own family, friends, and other members of the community. To reiterate, the job of a law enforcement officer is to gather evidence in order to get convictions.

Well Waterhouse helped me when I bought 10 revolvers (after 2 years in Iraq), he had the multiple form ready and off I went. Only bought revolvers though. The FED has not rousted me out of my tent at Camp Cupcake Iraq!! Over 4 years in Iraq, and I was so happy GEN Casey admitted we will be here another decade!! More guns to buy!! If the ATFE wanted to get serious, they would be blocking cargo ship deliveries into MEXICO. And the same could be done coming out of mexico. Look at all the guns seen on the news, military grade automatic firearms and rocket launchers are not bought at the mom and pop store is san antonio!!

Thanks a lot for your service, dude. That's a lot of tours, and every firearm you buy when you're stateside is well earned, IMO.

 

[Rockwell1]

Ever seen an episode of cops? In case you haven't, it usually goes something like this:

The best episode I ever saw was the one where they caught a guy and started to question him, complete with "I can't help you if you're not honest" They guy started to talk then said "I don't want to be a jerk but I think I need to talk to a lawyer." The cops cut him loose, turned around and told the camera " We had to let him go because we couldn't get him to talk"