Been thinking this one over...

[halfded]

Ok,I'm sure this has been covered before, but maybe not this particular scenario:

You're in a parking lot around dusk, just arrived at your car. The parking lot is full but there's no one around until right as you unlock your door a man (appearances are irrelevant for these purposes) shouts from the next lane of cars over "Hey let me ask you something real quick!" You respond appropriately with a firm negative reply. He keeps advancing at a steady pace. By now he's covered half the distance between his starting position and the front of your car (my personal boundaries are the leading edges of my car in such a situation) and insists on talking to you. You respond again with a negative reply, more loudly, and start to enter a defensive posture (blading, hand on weapon, hand out, verbal commands, etc). By now the man has almost reached the front of the car (all of this has happened before you can get in the car and drive away, for discussion purposes) and has drawn a knife. At this point, you see another person, obviously working with the first guy, approaching from behind the cars to your left, also armed with a knife. Both are closing at the same rate of speed.

Just been going over this in my head for a while, and thought I'd get some opinions. I realize that there are a lot of things to be done to de-escalate the situation and/or escape; what I am going over is the worst possible scenario.


--------------------first row of cars-----------------------

Travel lane_______________#1__________________


----------------------#2---*[ ]---------------------------

#1 is final position of BG 1
#2 is final position of BG 2 (equal distance)
* is you or I
[ ] is your car

There are cars parked on all sides of yours, severely limiting movement options.

 

[Todd A]

just arrived at your car.

until right as you unlock your door a man

Enter car,lock doors,start engine,drive away.

You respond again with a negative reply, more loudly, and start to enter a defensive posture (blading, hand on weapon, hand out, verbal commands, etc).

No need for a firearm at all

 

[halfded]

Like I said above, I know there are lots of things to de-escalate nad/or get away from the situation. I'm looking for the worst case scenario.

ex. You get to your car and when you reach for your keys, they aren't there. Pick pocket, locked in the car, dropped; take your pick. My car has a keyless entry/starter kill. If you lock the car with the remote and the battery dies, the car won't start until you push the button on the remote... after you walk somewhere and change the battery, though the key will open the door.

I'm talking worse comes to worse here, no where to go but up the creek.

Sorry, I meant the BG has reached the front of the car when you move to defensive posturing, etc. By the way, I drive a civic, the hood is maybe... MAYBE 4 feet long, well within quick striking distance with said knife.

 

[qwert65]

When you say no the first time just get in your car, only time you couldnt is if you didnt have your key in hand already which is avoidable by always having your key in hand.

I guess if you drop your key and you get rushed but frankly so many things would have to go wrong its prob not your day. In this rare eventuality the answer is simple. defend yourself

 

[halfded]

Sorry I'm a newbie to the whole forum thing, I should've been more specific. I know that there are many many ways to avoid this situation becoming anything more than uncomfortable. I also know that the only other option, having had everything go wrong would be to defend myself. My question was how would you address the situation once it got to the point of no return.

Who is the primary threat here? They are equal distances with the same weapon. You have no way to retreat without getting closer to one or the other. Just wondered what other people's reaction would be.

I consider BG #1 the main threat because there is a small amount of the vehicle next to you slowing his advance; although I would try to angle myself to where I could see them both at the same time and go from there.

Sorry for the confusion. Guess I should have started the thread with "You're having the worst luck of your life..."

 

[qwert65]

given your parameters I'd draw and fire at #1 while moving towards him, creating distance from 2 then keep running(though stop firing)

 

[halfded]

For some reason the idea of advancing toward BG #1 never occurred to me. Guess I was more preoccupied with trying to find a way to create distance between both at the same time. No escape path= make escape path.

One last thought, right as you draw to engage #1, #2 rushes you from side/back. As you turn to neutralize the new primary threat, #1, seeing you turn your attention to do serious harm to his cohort, also begins to rush you. I'm assuming the only response I'm going to get with that little addition is to practice the speed of my target acquisition and shot placement. I know some people will say "do the same thing as mentioned above, but backward" i.e. shoot #2 and advance toward him for escape; but that's assuming that #2 is neutralized almost immediately, as BG #1 is only covering a distance of 6 feet at best by that point. Please no debates about caliber and stopping power. If #2 doesn't go down right away, you have no where to go and a very short time to come up with plan B.

 

[Little_Bigman]

and has drawn a knife

That's when I'd start shooting. If they're both dumb enough to bring a knife to a gunfight.......

 

[qwert65]

you can always come up with what ifs, I mean what if theres 5 of them? Sometimes it's just your time

 

[ccsniper]

in arkansas once you see they are armed and quickly advancing with the negative/get away from me you creep remarks, you can shoot him. and thats what i would do if i couldnt get in my truck fast enough or they were too close to try to get in and leave. it would be very clear that his intentions are not to help you. although you may have a tag on your shirt and he is just trying to be helpful and cut it off.

 

[halfded]

Thanks for all the responses... looks like the majority vote is in line with what I came up with.

Good point Qwert65, that's one thing that must be realized and dealt with. Just because we practice, carry and remain vigilant doesn't mean a guaranteed outcome. Sometime's you just can't win.

 

[TeamPrecisionIT]

I know this is going to sound Rambo-esque, but you could jump onto the roof of your vehicle and kind of car hop if you really are worried about drawing your weapon. If not, then punch your way through guy #1 and then create distance between you and guy #2 in your secnario.

Damian

 

[Yosemite Sam]

I know this is going to sound Rambo-esque, but you could jump onto the roof of your vehicle and kind of car hop if you really are worried about drawing your weapon. If not, then punch your way through guy #1 and then create distance between you and guy #2 in your secnario.

Only in the movies. Maybe I'm not that good at long jump, but cars are pretty far apart. Not to mention different heights. One slip and you break your jaw or leg as you fail to land on the next car.

 

[mparms]

Let's consider the twenty foot rule... anyone familiar? If someone is within twenty feet of you with an edged weapon already drawn averages have it that they will be on you before you can draw, drop safety, acquire target and discharge your weapon with any reliability.
That's a common rule taught at gunsite and in almost every single police academy in america as well as training for military spec ops. With all of that said there are ways around it.
Debating hypothetical scenarios can go back and forth all day long w/o experience in a specific scenario or type of tactical situation.:banghead:

 

[sm]

Todd A , post number 2 works for me.

A firearm is not the solution to every problem.
One is supposed to have Software, so they don't have to go to Hardware.

The earlier one picks up a signal, the greater the distance one has to deal with a situation.
Distance, is not only inches, feet and yards, also time.

The reality is, there is no set distance for any one person, nor society.
One will have differences in "distance" just in the shoes they wear, or clothing.
Tennis shoes differ from leather soled, and for sure differ for ladies wearing some foot wear styles they wear.

Health- get a headache, have a migrain, cold, flu, ...etc and "distance" will vary with a person.
This 21 foot rule, is not very good with someone using crutches with a busted leg, or someone in a wheelchair.

Variables such as having a baby/child in arms. Oh you did really well in comfy clothes, and tennis shoes and this 21 foot drill.
Not grab a 18 month old, and wear leather soled shoes and dress clothes, and do this 21 foot drill.

Hence the - There ain't no absolutes.

3+1 - SouthNarc.

No, I am not going to share what "3+1" is, as I have too much respect for SouthNarc.
Look it up, or take his class.

SouthNarc got to thinking , as he found himself being attended after having his butt kicked again, "what happened?" .

"What are the signals I have been missing that leads up to me, and my kind, getting our butts kicked, and having to get medical attention?"

He thought about it, and came up "3 + 1" .
Hint: Signals.

As a civilian, I have no duty to run toward trouble. In fact, it is best for me to not go where trouble is, leave if trouble shows up, and then, deal with trouble using skill sets.

I did not type "draw gun and shoot", I typed "deal with trouble using skill sets".
There is a difference.

Add, Problem 2.

This problem is real. It can be life altering, and expensive. Not just financially also mentally, and emotionally.

What do First Responders see?
Witnesses saw and heard "what?"

Yes, one might very well have to trip trigger to stop a threat, so yes train to do so, and put attention into the Software part of using that Hardware (gun).

Still, the earlier you pick up a signal , the greater distance you have.

I am not going to make fun of someone that got into a car and drove off because their gut interpreted a early signal as trouble.

I actually consider this person to be well trained, as they did exactly what so many trainers really want students to "get".
That is, not getting to the part where they have to trip trigger.

 

[mparms]

Excellent point sm, nothing is absolute, andbeing observant is the best defense we have everyday. There is nothing wrong with choosing battles.

 

[Leanwolf]

HALFDED - "By now the man has almost reached the front of the car (all of this has happened before you can get in the car and drive away, ...) and has drawn a knife. At this point, you see another person, obviously working with the first guy, approaching from behind the cars to your left, also armed with a knife. Both are closing at the same rate of speed."

Given your scenario...

If I can't get into my car and slam the door before they reach me, I will pull my handgun and start shooting, the instant I see a knife or in this case, two knives.

Not sure exactly whom I would shoot first, depending on the situation. But I assure you I'd be shooting.

I have seen people who were cut to pieces, and even killed, by knife wielding, vicious thugs. It is horrible!

Not for me, if I can get off the shots.

I say again, I'd hope to get into the car and slam and lock the door before they reached me, but...

Once the knives come out, that is the "invitation to the dance," as far as I am concerned.

Just my take on it.

L.W.

 

[Duke of Doubt]

Don't underestimate the car door as a weapon. I once slammed my door open into an assailant using both legs to propel it into his abdomen, and the effects were surprising. I then dropped the tranny into "Drive" with the door still open, and it deflected the assailant as I accelerated away. Didn't even get a dent.

 

[f4t9r]

Defend yourself !!! As soon as you see the knife its on !!
Wait to long you are done.

 

[mrghostwalker]

Been Thinking

1) Get in your car.
2) Start your car.
3) Drive your car.

Do NOT look for a reason to shoot someone. Do not look for a fight if you can get away.

 

[skeet king]

I would think that as soon as you flashed your gun to the rubber knife gang, they would probably stop, or at least give you enough time to 'pop 'em

 

[CWL]

Why can't you move?

I've reread this and do not see anything saying that you are moving away from both threats. Using your diagram, move towards the bottom of this page to keep car between you and #1 and make #2 move around side of car to get near you.

If you are armed with a pistol, and you move yourself so they have to engage you one-at-a-time, it will probably end the encounter without shots fired. If they press the attack, you have time to shoot #2 and still keep car between you & #1. If #1 still wants to press the attack with #2 already down, then he will have to move around the car, giving you the option of moving, shooting, or even getting into your car & driving away.

 

[MostlyHarmless]

I would hope that you would have the situational awareness that would identify the threats long before this point. Usually with parking lot robberies and carjackings the doers place themselves close to the exit from whatever building you will be coming from. Then they follow you.

In a parking lot where there are no other people present, two people closing with you are clearly up to no good. If it were me, I'd draw, and expect that the odds are 98% that it would be unnecessary to shoot to ensure my own safety.

Legal problems are still a possibility as they are with any defensive gun use. Only you can weigh the relative risks.

 

[bikerdoc]

Threat recognition, situational awareness, are all fancy names for using your brain. 21 feet, how about 21 yards, the earlier your software(credit to SM) kicks in the less you have to use hardware.( best hardware is a cell phone)
As for your situation -what better weapon than a rolling vehicle. get in and wave bye,bye knuckleheads.
good training = try to make the "loss prevention" people at the local big box.
Every one is suspect until Im home in my easy chair.

 

[halfded]

Gotten a lot of good responses, I like CWL's idea. Rather then move toward #1 maybe losing line of sight of #2; put the car between you and #1 and just deal with #2 at first. So it seems the general consensus here is that if you can isolate the BGs from each other, there's more of a chance of defusing the situation right?