You read alot about what a hunting rifle will do from the bench and it always sounds impressive, but on average how does it compare to a field position (hunting, tree stand , etc) ? If you are getting 1" groups at 100yds. from the bench what would you get from a tree stand shot or a sitting or kneeling position ? -Thanks
Bench rest groups vs. field groups ?
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Gunnerboy
Member
2-4in depending on how steady you can hold your rifle.
In my opinion that is an Apples to Oranges comparison. (like if your batting average is 350, how many touchdowns can you make) A rifle that shoots MOA groups from the bench will shoot MOA in the field. It is the shooter that is the variable here. Completely a different type of shooting. Better question would be if you can kill a deer in the field (one shot), what are your groups at the bench.
Jim
Jim
People ought to really try this, and find out just how hard it is to shoot hunting rifles well without a 400 pound concrete bench and 40 pounds of sandbags.
I have a nice J C Higgins M50 bolt action rifle in 30-06. I decided, for whatever reason, to shoot it after a 100 yard reduced Highpower match.
I believe I shot a HM score that day with my M1a. With irons, in all my gear, standing, sitting, prone.
So, at the end of the match I decide to shoot my JC Higgins sitting with a hasty sling. It has a scope and I am out of my shooting jacket.
This JC Higgins has shot nice groups, easily inch and a quarter with standbags and a rest.
Sitting, I could just keep the black. The bolt rifle was very light and twitchy my head position not that perfect, and I was surprised to see that scope moving all over the target. Maybe with more practice I could shoot close to MOA, but you know what, I am not putting that much time in shooting a hunting rifle. And it is not that easy.
Don't fool yourself into thinking that you can shoot that bench group anywhere but on a bench.
I have a nice J C Higgins M50 bolt action rifle in 30-06. I decided, for whatever reason, to shoot it after a 100 yard reduced Highpower match.
I believe I shot a HM score that day with my M1a. With irons, in all my gear, standing, sitting, prone.
So, at the end of the match I decide to shoot my JC Higgins sitting with a hasty sling. It has a scope and I am out of my shooting jacket.
This JC Higgins has shot nice groups, easily inch and a quarter with standbags and a rest.
Sitting, I could just keep the black. The bolt rifle was very light and twitchy my head position not that perfect, and I was surprised to see that scope moving all over the target. Maybe with more practice I could shoot close to MOA, but you know what, I am not putting that much time in shooting a hunting rifle. And it is not that easy.
Don't fool yourself into thinking that you can shoot that bench group anywhere but on a bench.
I shoot almost as good, maybe better, in the field. Here is why;
1) My "bench" shooting is indoors. I have a rest but no sandbags. There are people shooting around me.
2) I really only shoot from the bench when sighting in. Other than that I practice field positions nearly exclusively.
3) My "field" is outdoors. There are no other shooters to disturb me. I swear my opitcs work better outside. I feel like it is easier to see the target outside.
1) My "bench" shooting is indoors. I have a rest but no sandbags. There are people shooting around me.
2) I really only shoot from the bench when sighting in. Other than that I practice field positions nearly exclusively.
3) My "field" is outdoors. There are no other shooters to disturb me. I swear my opitcs work better outside. I feel like it is easier to see the target outside.
MachIVshooter
Member
Just as an approximate example of what I've found to hold true for me.
If the rifle/ammo combination is a 1 MOA off the bench (front and rear sandbags), I find my abilities to be roughly:
1-1.2 MOA prone w/bi-pod and using off hand as rear rest.
1.5 MOA sitting with bipod
1.5-2 MOA with improvised rest sitting
2-3 MOA standing with improvised rest or kneeling with elbow on knee.
4-6 MOA off-hand.
As such, when hunting, the position I can take dictates the range at which I'll take the shot.
Off-hand shots tend to only be necessary at pretty close range when the window of opportunity may be very short
Standing and using a tree limb or somesuch usually means there is foliage obscuring a shot from a lower position, which typically is also characteristic of a close, make-it-quick shot.
Sitting is common, and if the distance is much over 100 yards, I've found I usually have time to set the bipod and get a solid position. I feel comfortable with shots out to 400 in this position.
Prone doesn't seem to happen with big game hunting where I hunt. Usually just no way to get an angle on the critter from prone in the rockies. For varmints on the plains, however, this is the norm, and praire dogs really aren't safe at any distance I can see them. Inside 300 is virtually 100% hit probablility unless the wind is raging. 400 drops to about 70%, 500 about 40-50%, 600 about 25%, 700 about 15%, 800 about 10%. My longest kill was 782 yards, and it took 6 shots. This is with a .220 Swift and taylored loads. Of course, at 2" wide or less, praire dogs represent about 1/5th of a big game animal's bullseye.
On big game, if I can build a position as steady as prone, I will take a shot out to an absolute maximum of 600 yards. Beyond that, shooting ability becomes less relevant when factors like wind and angles make calculations for which you will not have the variables necessary for an ethical shot. Unlike a praire rat, who is pretty much a gonner if he gets hit at all with a centerfire, a big game animal can very easily run off and die hours, days or weeks later, sufferering all the while, from a bad shot.
If the rifle/ammo combination is a 1 MOA off the bench (front and rear sandbags), I find my abilities to be roughly:
1-1.2 MOA prone w/bi-pod and using off hand as rear rest.
1.5 MOA sitting with bipod
1.5-2 MOA with improvised rest sitting
2-3 MOA standing with improvised rest or kneeling with elbow on knee.
4-6 MOA off-hand.
As such, when hunting, the position I can take dictates the range at which I'll take the shot.
Off-hand shots tend to only be necessary at pretty close range when the window of opportunity may be very short
Standing and using a tree limb or somesuch usually means there is foliage obscuring a shot from a lower position, which typically is also characteristic of a close, make-it-quick shot.
Sitting is common, and if the distance is much over 100 yards, I've found I usually have time to set the bipod and get a solid position. I feel comfortable with shots out to 400 in this position.
Prone doesn't seem to happen with big game hunting where I hunt. Usually just no way to get an angle on the critter from prone in the rockies. For varmints on the plains, however, this is the norm, and praire dogs really aren't safe at any distance I can see them. Inside 300 is virtually 100% hit probablility unless the wind is raging. 400 drops to about 70%, 500 about 40-50%, 600 about 25%, 700 about 15%, 800 about 10%. My longest kill was 782 yards, and it took 6 shots. This is with a .220 Swift and taylored loads. Of course, at 2" wide or less, praire dogs represent about 1/5th of a big game animal's bullseye.
On big game, if I can build a position as steady as prone, I will take a shot out to an absolute maximum of 600 yards. Beyond that, shooting ability becomes less relevant when factors like wind and angles make calculations for which you will not have the variables necessary for an ethical shot. Unlike a praire rat, who is pretty much a gonner if he gets hit at all with a centerfire, a big game animal can very easily run off and die hours, days or weeks later, sufferering all the while, from a bad shot.
I've recently started working more on my rifle skills, starting with the seated position while using a leather military sling.
For me, it's a tough comparison: While shooting from a bench, I'll take all the time in the world for each shot, whereas I'm paying special attention to bolt technique for a faster followup shot while seated. I'll also be working on getting into the seated position for a quicker 1st shot. Nonetheless, as a noob, my seated groups are about 2-3x my benched groups, but with practice (live and dry fire) I'm sure they'll improve quite a bit.
For me, it's a tough comparison: While shooting from a bench, I'll take all the time in the world for each shot, whereas I'm paying special attention to bolt technique for a faster followup shot while seated. I'll also be working on getting into the seated position for a quicker 1st shot. Nonetheless, as a noob, my seated groups are about 2-3x my benched groups, but with practice (live and dry fire) I'm sure they'll improve quite a bit.
Loyalist Dave
Member
Only IF those are factors. My hunting rifle doesn't have a sling, so no pressure on the barrel from it, nor do I apply pressure to the barrel when shooting at deer. Also, there is no heating of the barrel due to several shots as there would be when using a bench and firing at the range, which will cause a barrel in some cases to flex, as the barrel is cold with the first shot at the deer of the day.
LD
JohnBT
Member
"So far no one has mentioned the effect of a tight sling on a rifle, and putting pressure on the barrel."
And I don't believe anyone mentioned how you bench the rifle can make it shoot worse than what it does in the field. Where you put the front rest or bag under the forearm; whether you hold the butt against your shoulder (and how tightly) or let the gun recoil freely; whether you hold the rifle with both hands or just one; all sorts of things will make a rifle throw shots off the bench.
I learned all this the hard way trying to move from field shooting to bench shooting.
And how tightly the sand is packed in the front bag and what kind of sand will throw things off, too.
And I don't believe anyone mentioned how you bench the rifle can make it shoot worse than what it does in the field. Where you put the front rest or bag under the forearm; whether you hold the butt against your shoulder (and how tightly) or let the gun recoil freely; whether you hold the rifle with both hands or just one; all sorts of things will make a rifle throw shots off the bench.
I learned all this the hard way trying to move from field shooting to bench shooting.
And how tightly the sand is packed in the front bag and what kind of sand will throw things off, too.
JohnBT
Member
Sinclair International/Brownell's has short primer on shooting non-benchrest rifles from the bench. Okay, maybe seven pages isn't short, but it's an introduction.
http://blog.sinclairintl.com/2009/01/15/shooting-non-benchrest-rifles-from-the-bench/
http://blog.sinclairintl.com/2009/01/15/shooting-non-benchrest-rifles-from-the-bench/
henschman
Member
That brings up a good issue to consider: if you hunt from field positions, then why do you zero your hunting rifle on a bench?
I say zero it and practice with it the way you will actually be shooting it in the field.
Your POI from a bench will usually be a little different than your POI from field positions.
I say zero it and practice with it the way you will actually be shooting it in the field.
Your POI from a bench will usually be a little different than your POI from field positions.
hardluk1
member
Many of us have free floated barrels an if useing quaility laminated or composite stocks and do not flex enought to apply pressue to the barrel. Many hunter also hunt from a stand or use a pod for suport. Groups will not be as good as the bench can offer but a long shot can be made so long as you don't rush anything. But that tends to come with experience too and controling your emotions.
Art Eatman
Moderator In Memoriam
When I hear "benchrest", I automatically assume sandbags or some system which allows the rifle to be pointed very close to dead-on for aim with little further movement by the shooter. Then, best-effort consistency from shot to shot.
I try to set up where the front sandbag is at the same place where I put my support hand when in the field. I try to have the same amount of force in my hold in the field as when I'm at the bench.
I've never shot groups from field positions, but I've killed a whole bunch of critters with one shot per each. I've hit most of them within an inch of my intended shot placement.
I try to set up where the front sandbag is at the same place where I put my support hand when in the field. I try to have the same amount of force in my hold in the field as when I'm at the bench.
I've never shot groups from field positions, but I've killed a whole bunch of critters with one shot per each. I've hit most of them within an inch of my intended shot placement.
tahoe2
Member
I only benchrest when testing new loadings (combinations) from my reloading bench, once I establish a loads capability (keep it/scrap it), I try to duplicate it with field positions. My groups are usually twice the size @ 100 yds, from 1-1/4"(bench) to 2-1/2"(field) from the field and 3"(bench)to 6"(field) at 200 yds. I haven't shot farther than that as my range doesn't go farther than 200.
ZeroJunk
Member
I'm in the apples and oranges group myself. It is not difficult to get down around an inch at 100 yards from a good bench set up with a good bolt action hunting rifle.
But, if you can shoot two inch groups from typical hunting rests like trees, rocks, your knee or whatever you have some talent or have practiced a bit.
And if you can shoot a two inch group standing with no rest you are my hero.
But, if you can shoot two inch groups from typical hunting rests like trees, rocks, your knee or whatever you have some talent or have practiced a bit.
And if you can shoot a two inch group standing with no rest you are my hero.
Gotta agree with Jim, every one can shoot good at the bench even the worst shooter will do better on the bench than at the range. The variable here is the shooter. That is why I alway practice off hand shooting at 200 yds and 100 with a heavy 22lr rifle or my ar15. Keep your muscle memory and skills this way for shooting incase there is not a bench available when deer hunting.
Biggerhammer
Member
Bottom line is, it all depends on the driver.
mljdeckard
Member
The more accurate it is on the bench....the more error margin you have in the field.
I would add that a hunting rifle tested from the bench and you know it shoots MOA or better, gives me more confidence in the field to make a difficult shot, like a small hole through the trees in which you must thread the needle. If you miss you can only blame yourself. Nothing beats trigger time.
If the bench error is quarter of an inch but the field error is yards, or tens of yards, seems to me that the emphasis is on the wrong thing.
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That would be outstanding.
This group was shot by a bud of mine, in 100 yard highpower competition, standing, with an AR15. He has at least one President's 100 patch and is a very good offhand shot. I took a photo because this one is really good. It was scored as a 99-7X
Pistol Ranch
Member
If a RIFLE will shoot a minute of angle group, it makes no difference, field or bench. The SHOOTER makes the difference.
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