Beretta CX-4 Storms now available! Less than $500!!!
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KelBench400
Member
Same reason we buy alot of other guns on the market. Diversification. I have an AR in .223. Does that make me want a .45 caliber carbine any less...No! Some guns are just content to be range guns and safe queens. I'm not saying that I own any (yet), but when you already have a dozen 'serious' guns I think it's safe to purchase a 'fun' gun or two.
Kel
Wow, that sounds half anti. (I'm pretty sure your not) How about just because we can.
iamkris
Member
Some people are very set in their ways and if a mental model doesn't fit their own, they immediately discard it.
There is diversity amongst gun-owners (diversity = lots of reasons to own / use). Mine are -- not necessarily in this order:
1) It's fun to shoot
2) Appreciation of mechanical wonder / work of art
3) For competition
4) For hunting
5) For self-defense
6) Because I can
Any or all of these (and others) are completely valid.
Let's do less in-fighting (e.g., "don't waste your time with that crap" or "as a hunter/competitor/ninja I see no reason for a hunting/competitive/ninja weapon") and more "out-fighting" against those that would take our right away...for whatever reason we choose to enjoy firearms.
There is diversity amongst gun-owners (diversity = lots of reasons to own / use). Mine are -- not necessarily in this order:
1) It's fun to shoot
2) Appreciation of mechanical wonder / work of art
3) For competition
4) For hunting
5) For self-defense
6) Because I can
Any or all of these (and others) are completely valid.
Let's do less in-fighting (e.g., "don't waste your time with that crap" or "as a hunter/competitor/ninja I see no reason for a hunting/competitive/ninja weapon") and more "out-fighting" against those that would take our right away...for whatever reason we choose to enjoy firearms.
Tamara
Senior Member
Not Real Ultimate Power, but...
Hrmmm...
I kinda figured that a short, compact, light carbine that can use the stacks of Beretta 92 mags that someone has already accumulated, is easily convertible for left-hand use, can be swapped between calibers with a minimum of fuss, and won't burst your eardrums when capped off in an HD situation would be a no-brainer.
Go figure...
If I had a stack of 92FS reg-cap mags, I'd be all over this thing, but as it is, it's more in the "Interesting, but only if I find a deal on a used one" category.
Hrmmm...
I kinda figured that a short, compact, light carbine that can use the stacks of Beretta 92 mags that someone has already accumulated, is easily convertible for left-hand use, can be swapped between calibers with a minimum of fuss, and won't burst your eardrums when capped off in an HD situation would be a no-brainer.
Go figure...
If I had a stack of 92FS reg-cap mags, I'd be all over this thing, but as it is, it's more in the "Interesting, but only if I find a deal on a used one" category.
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George Hill
Member
.223 is only barely a rifle caliber.
I dont see it as any better than 9MM out of carbine length barrels.
I dont see it as any better than 9MM out of carbine length barrels.
Tamara
Senior Member
Yeah, I mean what does .223 do that 9mm doesn't at CQB distances? (I mean, other than having four or five times the energy, tumbling, fragmenting, and leaving a much larger permanent wound cavity, that is... )
George, your He-Man AR Hater's Bias is showing through.
(Not that a 9mm round or four in the right place won't get the job done just fine. It's been killing folks by the boxcar lot since 1908.)
)George, your He-Man AR Hater's Bias is showing through.
(Not that a 9mm round or four in the right place won't get the job done just fine. It's been killing folks by the boxcar lot since 1908.)
Feather
If some of you want a poor-man's MP5 then take a look at the Feather:
http://www.featherusa.com/page3.html
And that thing can be accessorized!
If some of you want a poor-man's MP5 then take a look at the Feather:
http://www.featherusa.com/page3.html
And that thing can be accessorized!
Shalako
Member
I like it.
Is it true, though, that us Californicans can't be trusted with it? Damn, I never really saw a use for a pistol caliber carbine until now. Hmmm...
I also appreciate the dissenting opinions on these different new products. As much as I think I like this thing, what if I bought it and it royally sucked? Dissent is good. I still like it though.
Is it true, though, that us Californicans can't be trusted with it? Damn, I never really saw a use for a pistol caliber carbine until now. Hmmm...
I also appreciate the dissenting opinions on these different new products. As much as I think I like this thing, what if I bought it and it royally sucked? Dissent is good. I still like it though.
rock jock
Member
PAT,
To answer your question, my range will not allow rifle caliber carbines for our monthly 3-gun match. I bought a 9mm upper for my AR for that reason. Speaking of which, if a new AWB is passed, you will be limited to at most a 17-rd 92fs magazine for the Storm. More likely you will be stuck with 10-rounders for life. That would take all the fun out of a pistol-caliber carbine. That alone is a good reason to either a) wait till Sept '04 comes and goes w/o a AWB, or b) buy a 9mm upper for your AR, which can use tons of modified 25- and 32-round Uzi mags for cheap.
To answer your question, my range will not allow rifle caliber carbines for our monthly 3-gun match. I bought a 9mm upper for my AR for that reason. Speaking of which, if a new AWB is passed, you will be limited to at most a 17-rd 92fs magazine for the Storm. More likely you will be stuck with 10-rounders for life. That would take all the fun out of a pistol-caliber carbine. That alone is a good reason to either a) wait till Sept '04 comes and goes w/o a AWB, or b) buy a 9mm upper for your AR, which can use tons of modified 25- and 32-round Uzi mags for cheap.
I dont see it as any better than 9MM out of carbine length barrels.
END
Well not too many experts on any side of the stopping power debate will agree with you on that point. But to each their own. I have owned a 9mm AR15 before. I sold the upper and mags and changed it into a 223. Have fun and stay safe my intent was not to stir up discontent.
PAT
END
Well not too many experts on any side of the stopping power debate will agree with you on that point. But to each their own. I have owned a 9mm AR15 before. I sold the upper and mags and changed it into a 223. Have fun and stay safe my intent was not to stir up discontent.
PAT
George Hill
Member
A fancy .22 will still put .22 caliber holes in you.
A 9MM will at least put a 9MM hole in you.
END
START
All the majic hypervelocity voodoo goes away when you gut the barrel down to carbine length. Out of a carbine length barrel 9MM at least improves. Especially with the hotter +P flavors.
END AGAIN
GEORGE
A 9MM will at least put a 9MM hole in you.
END
START
All the majic hypervelocity voodoo goes away when you gut the barrel down to carbine length. Out of a carbine length barrel 9MM at least improves. Especially with the hotter +P flavors.
END AGAIN
GEORGE
nextjoe
Member
Here's a wild idea... how about the people who like it buy it, and the people who don't, don't?
Best,
Joe
Best,
Joe
gun-fucious
Member
purdy nifty SkaerE,
check out one of my posts a few back
Beretta's doing it in 3 round burst with a suppressor and a collapsable stock
i'm kinda thinking something like the HK PDW stock:
http://www.hkpro.com/pdw.htm
or the MP5:
http://www.hkpro.com/mp5sd.htm
check out one of my posts a few back
Beretta's doing it in 3 round burst with a suppressor and a collapsable stock
i'm kinda thinking something like the HK PDW stock:
http://www.hkpro.com/pdw.htm
or the MP5:
http://www.hkpro.com/mp5sd.htm
A fancy .22 will still put .22 caliber holes in you.
A 9MM will at least put a 9MM hole in you.
END
This is simply not true. A carbine length barrel of 16 inches is still producing enough velocity to do some very nasty things. Only when you get to about 12 inches or so do you run into more problems. Then it’s only at ranges greater than 100 yards. That’s an approximate figure that depends on the barrel length and ammunition used. If you’re using soft points or hollow points, as you should be, the bullets do much better further out than ball ammo does.
The 223 has enough energy to rip tissue far away from any area the bullet actually touches. The 9mm even with a velocity boost up to 357 sig levels simply cannot compete with the 223 for destructive force. Inside 100 yards 223 wounds are the equals of 308 Winchester wounds. The bullets are not magic they simply have a lot of energy and the bullet fragments and makes a mess of things. The truth is the whole put in you from the worst 223 round is still worlds ahead of the whole put in you from the best pistol rounds. With the exception of long-range shootings with SS109 there have been no complaints as to the 223 stopping power. The 223 is steadily replacing both the patrol shotgun and the SWAT Sub gun. The thought that a 9mm is somehow better than a 223 is simply not an educated one.
I do not doubt you’re a very knowledgeable man. But this is an area you need to do some more research in.
That being said, buy the Storm. Its made by Beretta I am sure its a quality weapon. I am just opposed to the concept. I see no logical reason for their existence. But if you do that’s great.
PAT
A 9MM will at least put a 9MM hole in you.
END
This is simply not true. A carbine length barrel of 16 inches is still producing enough velocity to do some very nasty things. Only when you get to about 12 inches or so do you run into more problems. Then it’s only at ranges greater than 100 yards. That’s an approximate figure that depends on the barrel length and ammunition used. If you’re using soft points or hollow points, as you should be, the bullets do much better further out than ball ammo does.
The 223 has enough energy to rip tissue far away from any area the bullet actually touches. The 9mm even with a velocity boost up to 357 sig levels simply cannot compete with the 223 for destructive force. Inside 100 yards 223 wounds are the equals of 308 Winchester wounds. The bullets are not magic they simply have a lot of energy and the bullet fragments and makes a mess of things. The truth is the whole put in you from the worst 223 round is still worlds ahead of the whole put in you from the best pistol rounds. With the exception of long-range shootings with SS109 there have been no complaints as to the 223 stopping power. The 223 is steadily replacing both the patrol shotgun and the SWAT Sub gun. The thought that a 9mm is somehow better than a 223 is simply not an educated one.
I do not doubt you’re a very knowledgeable man. But this is an area you need to do some more research in.
That being said, buy the Storm. Its made by Beretta I am sure its a quality weapon. I am just opposed to the concept. I see no logical reason for their existence. But if you do that’s great.
PAT
George Hill wrote:
Sorry, but you don't seem quite up to date on 5.56 ammo. With the new 75gr. TAP or 77gr. OTM out of a 1/7 twist barrel, you could even go with a 11.5" barrel and a silencer and STILL get superior fragmentation to FMJ .223 ammo, much better wound ballistics than ANY pistol carbine, less recoil & noise, plus penetration of almost all wearable bodyarmor. Moreover 5.56 ammo has the least overpenetration potential when compared to handgun & serious shotgun rounds. Hornady 75gr. TAP ammo is about as hard to get as premium hollowpoint ammo, which you would need for a pistol carbine to make it effective.
True, a short barrel rifle with a silencer setup may be quite expensive, but I guess not much more than the tricked out, super custom special 1911 which lies around in a many gunowners gunsafes. It really depends how serious you want to get- a pistol carbine is fine for plinking & adding one more unnecessary item to your gunsafe, but when it comes to serious use like self defense certainly no match for a proven Ar15 style 5.56 carbine. And no, I am not anti-gun or against the fun of owning plinking guns. I just believe that owning ONE serious gun plus getting some professional training to know how to really use it, could be as much fun as a whole safe full of "fun guns".
Don't take my word or Pats advice for it, just read for yourself- I guess these threads will change your opinion:
Quote#1
"Using a reflex type suppressor, a 14.5" bbl M4 Carbine will have the same OAL as a 10.5 using a muzzle mounted can - and using the 14.5 will give you added wpn effectiveness not only is range but also in bullet performance. "Link
Quote #2
"These rounds will fragment at MUCH lower velocities than standard M193 or M855 ammunition will, making them suitable for shorter barreled rifles, or for longer distance shots. Both faired very well, and are just about equals to each other, and definitely outperformed our previous M193 experiments and the M855 data that we've seen. "Link 2
Quote #3
"The switch to pistol caliber sub-machine guns driven by this baseless overpenetration claim and mostly chambered in 9mm or even more dangerously .40 S&W or 10mm has left many CQB teams undergunned from an anti-personnel view and with weapons that actually penetrate far worse than the .223 setups they replaced in CQB environments. Of course, the manufacturers of subguns were highly complicit, happily selling 9mm subguns designed for urban CQB and then happily selling the same agencies .40 and then 10mm replacements when stoppage problems developed.
Out of anything over 14.5" .223, even FMJ, simply penetrates less after striking light building materials than heavy (124 grain and +) 9mm from 4" barrels. Tests with drywall in particular bear this out. The exceptions start with FMJ rounds over 70 grains for .223 and with 9mm rounds too light and slow to be effective (SAAMI standard pressure 115 grain HP)."
http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=16&t=160320
Regards
Cato
Sorry, but you don't seem quite up to date on 5.56 ammo. With the new 75gr. TAP or 77gr. OTM out of a 1/7 twist barrel, you could even go with a 11.5" barrel and a silencer and STILL get superior fragmentation to FMJ .223 ammo, much better wound ballistics than ANY pistol carbine, less recoil & noise, plus penetration of almost all wearable bodyarmor. Moreover 5.56 ammo has the least overpenetration potential when compared to handgun & serious shotgun rounds. Hornady 75gr. TAP ammo is about as hard to get as premium hollowpoint ammo, which you would need for a pistol carbine to make it effective.
True, a short barrel rifle with a silencer setup may be quite expensive, but I guess not much more than the tricked out, super custom special 1911 which lies around in a many gunowners gunsafes. It really depends how serious you want to get- a pistol carbine is fine for plinking & adding one more unnecessary item to your gunsafe, but when it comes to serious use like self defense certainly no match for a proven Ar15 style 5.56 carbine. And no, I am not anti-gun or against the fun of owning plinking guns. I just believe that owning ONE serious gun plus getting some professional training to know how to really use it, could be as much fun as a whole safe full of "fun guns".
Don't take my word or Pats advice for it, just read for yourself- I guess these threads will change your opinion:
Quote#1
"Using a reflex type suppressor, a 14.5" bbl M4 Carbine will have the same OAL as a 10.5 using a muzzle mounted can - and using the 14.5 will give you added wpn effectiveness not only is range but also in bullet performance. "Link
Quote #2
"These rounds will fragment at MUCH lower velocities than standard M193 or M855 ammunition will, making them suitable for shorter barreled rifles, or for longer distance shots. Both faired very well, and are just about equals to each other, and definitely outperformed our previous M193 experiments and the M855 data that we've seen. "Link 2
Quote #3
"The switch to pistol caliber sub-machine guns driven by this baseless overpenetration claim and mostly chambered in 9mm or even more dangerously .40 S&W or 10mm has left many CQB teams undergunned from an anti-personnel view and with weapons that actually penetrate far worse than the .223 setups they replaced in CQB environments. Of course, the manufacturers of subguns were highly complicit, happily selling 9mm subguns designed for urban CQB and then happily selling the same agencies .40 and then 10mm replacements when stoppage problems developed.
Out of anything over 14.5" .223, even FMJ, simply penetrates less after striking light building materials than heavy (124 grain and +) 9mm from 4" barrels. Tests with drywall in particular bear this out. The exceptions start with FMJ rounds over 70 grains for .223 and with 9mm rounds too light and slow to be effective (SAAMI standard pressure 115 grain HP)."
http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=16&t=160320
Regards
Cato
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Tamara
Senior Member
The thought that because .223 offers better wound ballistics at point-blank range, then somehow 9mm is just going to bounce off the guy is equally fallacious. From the Sten and the MP-40 to the latest MP5, it's been doing just fine out of shoulder weapons for plenty of years.
I'm thinking that this ~$600 carbine will appeal more to owners of ~$500 Berettas than owners of multi-thousand-dollar 1911's. Not too many of them are real keen on $2,000+ aluminum rifles with an additional $400 in taxes piled on top of that, either, for that matter.
Look, folks, in our breathless quest for "best", let's try and avoid tripping over "plenty good enough", okay?
Art Eatman
Moderator In Memoriam
Folks oughta go back and read next joe's post.
And then read it again.
Y'all already know that with proper shot placement, a .22 rimfire is quick and permanent. Doubters can always ask the RFK family.
Art
And then read it again.
Y'all already know that with proper shot placement, a .22 rimfire is quick and permanent. Doubters can always ask the RFK family.
Art
GooseGestapo
Member
- Joined
- Jan 6, 2003
- Messages
- 6,153
I found the articles on penetration comparison interesting reads. However, the only .223 ammo tested was Mil-spec Ball, and 55gr Varmint hollow points, neither of which are designed to penetrate in SIMULATED tissue. Actually they performed quite as I would have expected from 24yrs of law enforcement experience of which 21.5 have been as a conservation officer and witnessing or inspecting gun shot wounds on various species to include Homo sapiens.
I don't have much "laboratory" testing experience, but I do know this.....
Except with FMJ-AP, the 9mm can't be expected to penetrate a L-III Kevlar vest, however the .223 will !!!
With ammunition such as 55gr or heavier soft point, the .223 is vastly a better stopper on human sized targets with fur coats on..... ie: Whitetail deer.
I have shot in excess of 20 deer with .223, make that over 50 to include the .22 Hornet.
I have shot in excess of 30 with .355-.358" diameter pistol cartridges, and that dosen't count the car-collision "put-downs", usually accomplished with .22rf or .38 semi or full wadcutters.
Conclusion: Penetration is much more dependant on bullet style and construction than caliber (diameter in tenths of an inch).
A 9mm or .357mag (or .35 Remington that that matter), loaded with a 90gr Hollow point (say the 90gr Sierra Hollow cavity) for instance, will penetrate FAR less than a 60gr Nosler Part. or 63gr Sierra, or 70gr Speer Soft point from a .223
Conversly, a Steel jacketed WWII surplus 9mm ball "SMG" round will FAR out penetrate a 35gr Hornady V-max from a .22 CF on "soft" targets such as ballistic gel.
Comparison of the two (9mm vs. .223) quickly becomes an Apples to Oranges comparison.
BTW: I still prefer the Marlin Camp Carbine to "Storm"
(to include thread content)
I don't have much "laboratory" testing experience, but I do know this.....
Except with FMJ-AP, the 9mm can't be expected to penetrate a L-III Kevlar vest, however the .223 will !!!
With ammunition such as 55gr or heavier soft point, the .223 is vastly a better stopper on human sized targets with fur coats on..... ie: Whitetail deer.
I have shot in excess of 20 deer with .223, make that over 50 to include the .22 Hornet.
I have shot in excess of 30 with .355-.358" diameter pistol cartridges, and that dosen't count the car-collision "put-downs", usually accomplished with .22rf or .38 semi or full wadcutters.
Conclusion: Penetration is much more dependant on bullet style and construction than caliber (diameter in tenths of an inch).
A 9mm or .357mag (or .35 Remington that that matter), loaded with a 90gr Hollow point (say the 90gr Sierra Hollow cavity) for instance, will penetrate FAR less than a 60gr Nosler Part. or 63gr Sierra, or 70gr Speer Soft point from a .223
Conversly, a Steel jacketed WWII surplus 9mm ball "SMG" round will FAR out penetrate a 35gr Hornady V-max from a .22 CF on "soft" targets such as ballistic gel.
Comparison of the two (9mm vs. .223) quickly becomes an Apples to Oranges comparison.
BTW: I still prefer the Marlin Camp Carbine to "Storm"
(to include thread content)
I wouldn't shoot a deer with either caliber, but there is no doubt in my mind that the 223 is more powerful than a 9mm.
If the mp5 was the best and baddest CQB shooter (and according to many it is) I don't see what all the fuss is about.
This thing, arguably a weapon of limited, err, specialized utility ends up in your collection, please let us know how it shoots.
Please. With a cherry on top.
If the mp5 was the best and baddest CQB shooter (and according to many it is) I don't see what all the fuss is about.
This thing, arguably a weapon of limited, err, specialized utility ends up in your collection, please let us know how it shoots.
Please. With a cherry on top.
gun-fucious
Member
i kinda doubt anyone is gonna get one before this fall
The rumor mill is saying the BATF is requesting some alterations
The rumor mill is saying the BATF is requesting some alterations
Schuey2002
Member
Why? Could it have something to do with the fact that it will use "pre-bans"?
starfuryzeta
Member
They probably want a 10 round fixed magazine that have to be loaded by stripper clips and a solid stock. That thumbhole stock could be cut and make it a pistol grip too easily. Can't have those things, can we.
Extremist
Member
Well if they change it to not accept pre-ban mags, I won't buy one. Beretta would be better off if they just delayed the release until after the ban expires.
James
James
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