Best close-quarters defense rifles?

[PAC 762]

Snowjob,
I understand where you and 355 are coming from, but I think any realistic threat that you'll need to shoot at someone farther than 10 yards or need more firepower is extremely slim. Additionally, in the senario where you would need an M4 (riots, SHTF, etc), most likely you would have the extra couple seconds to grab it out of your safe, versus having to have it next to your bed.

The advantage of the shotgun is so great for 99.9% of realistic senarios, IMHO.

 

[DHart]

Snowjob... Sportsman's Warehouse carries them... I just got this one from the Portland, OR store.

Get one in your hands and you won't want to leave the store without it! Guarantee!

 

[Snowjob]

PAC 762,
I don't actually disagree with your points. I guess I was speaking more to my own experience of wanting to start out with a multi-purpose tool that would save a little on initial cost, versus purchasing all firearms on my list, for all purposes, at once.

 

[cslinger]

When you get right down to it if you are simply thinking about owning one defensive long arm then one of the main criteria should really be what are you going to have the most FUN owning and shooting.

Whether you have a lever action, a shotgun, a AR varient or any number of other options you will be more than well enough armed for just about any situation you are ever likely to face. That combined with the fact that you really are likely never to face a serious situation then you should go for what is going to give you the best overall return on investment and part of them should be the fun factor.

We have access to a variety of firearms ranging from lever gun, to shotgun, to EBR to pistol caliber carbine etc. and so on. I truely wound't feel undergunned with any of them and chances are one of any of my SIG pistols, most likely a .45 P220ST will be the gun at hand for any kind of bump in the night scenario.

We don't own a lot of firearms for "tactical reasons" we own them because of each of their individual fun factors. Personally if I could only have one it would probably be a pump shotty of some type simply because of the variety of fun things I can do with it combined with it's overall defensive capabilities.

I think that levergun is just about a perfect choice since it is definitely plenty powerful in terms of a defensive arm plus it is versatile as hell, short and very handy and most of all will be a blast to shoot for fun and is very cool looking to boot.

Once again if I was going into harms way or if I was targeted by the mafia or something then a nice 30 round EBR would be the way to go but even in that case I would be able to make do with a good solid shotty or any number of other options.

It's perversely fun to prepare for the worst so to speak but thankfully the worst 99.9% of us will ever face is a charging B2 target or possibly an attack of a swarm of clay and that is the way I want to keep it.

Good choice DHART a shorty levergun. Funny how many of these questions were answered more than adequately many years ago. A good lever gun, and Jframe sized pistol will do you just fine for any kind of social needs you are ever likely to encounter and both are not exactly new.

Chris

 

[DHart]

Chris.... yours is a very, very well put statement which rings stone-true to my mind. Defense is serious stuff, but surrounding all this talk of defense (for many of us anyway) is really just having a lot of fun theorizing, speculating, shooting, chronographing, thinking, enjoying the process. Fortunately and thankfully, most of us will never go beyond that B2 or "swarm of clay". And yes, this little .454/.45Colt lever rifle is turning out to be more fun in a firearm than I've had in a very long time!

Legacy/Rossi '92 Ltd. 16" Trapper - .454 Casull

And, lucky for me, I have this other little carbine coming to me next week.... it's like Christmas in August! LOL

Winchester/Miroku '92 Ltd. 16" Trapper - .45 Colt

Nothing like fine art and fine shooting fun all wrapped up in one!

 

[PAC 762]

Snow,
I understand what you're saying. I definitely agree that the M4 is more versitile.

 

[Marshall]

Winchester/Miroku '92 Ltd. 16" Trapper - .45 Colt

Ahh yes, I love it! You have done well my son!
Psst...can you whisper what your buying price was?


And 355sigfan, I respect your likes and opinions. But, the basics are, AR's and .223 semi-auto's in general are offensive weapons. Shotguns in an HD configuration are defensive weapons and rightfully so for both. Granted a .223 lacks in the penetration department but it also better hit a head, heart or spine because that the only way it's going to be leathal and/or provide a sure stop. On the other hand, a shotgun with proper HD ammo will provide a sure stop with most every shot fired. Also, your aim can have some nervousness and still be effevtive, with a .223 you better be accurate to be effective, a total miss could be leathal to you and none of us want that.

 

[355sigfan]

Granted a .223 lacks in the penetration department but it also better hit a head, heart or spine because that the only way it's going to be leathal and/or provide a sure stop. On the other hand, a shotgun with proper HD ammo will provide a sure stop with most every shot fired.
END QUOTE

I respect your opinion as well and I respect the shotgun. But I feel your selling the stopping power of a 223 short. A 223 with soft point ammo creates devasting wounds. I would rather have it than buckshot. I will conceed that a 12 gauge slug is more devasting however. 223's have enough energy to make use of the stretch cavity. It stretches the tissue enought o rip it. It creates dead tissue areas the size of a cantalope.
Pat

 

[benEzra]

I guess I was speaking more to my own experience of wanting to start out with a multi-purpose tool that would save a little on initial cost, versus purchasing all firearms on my list, for all purposes, at once.

When you get right down to it if you are simply thinking about owning one defensive long arm then one of the main criteria should really be what are you going to have the most FUN owning and shooting.

This pretty much sums it up for me. Facing a single intruder on PCP from an ensconced position, a 12-gauge with 00 buckshot would probably be tops. However, a .223 or 7.62x39 will do almost as well, and I'd rather spend my range time punching paper with the rifle than with the shotgun. I just like rifles, period. So, for me, my choice in a defensive longarm would always be a rifle, because that's what I like to shoot.

Ditto for pistol-caliber carbines; they're neat, but I just like rifles.

To each his own . . .

 

[DHart]

Marshall... yes, I know, the Win/Miroku 92 Ltd Trapper .45Colt is special indeed. I've seen them from around $850 to $1000 at various places. My gunsmith can get them from Davidson's for $805 his cost plus about $20 shipping. I almost went for it. Then I discovered CDNN has a few of them left and they're going for $699 plus $15 shipping (that's below normal dealer cost - CDNN must have gotten a good deal on them). I suspect they're slow selling because they're so costly, that's probably why CDNN has a great deal on them. Davidson's commissioned Win/Miroku to make a limited run of 500 of them. Anyone who want's one for $699 plus $15 shipping... call CDNN.

I'm sooooo excited to be getting one! Especially at the Trapper length - my fave for a pistol caliber lever rifle.

Winchester/Miroku '92 Ltd. 16" Trapper - .45 Colt

 

[Marshall]

DHart,

Thanks for the hints! Now, just keep posting that picture and we'll be good!



355sigfan,

Let me share this with you for information purposes, not to be argumentative, which is what we're here for.

5.56x45mm NATO (.223 Rem)

The .223 is used for law enforcement applications, largely because some agencies fear the over penetration of the .308 round in hostage type situations. The .223 generally splinters on impact, allowing almost no excess penetration that could possibly hit innocents, such as hostages. But with this fragmentation and lack of penetration comes a necessity for more precise shot placement, leaving almost no room for error. The .223 has a small temporary wound channel (Stretch cavity), requiring almost a direct hit on the spinal stem in order to get "lights out" on a target. The lighter .223 bullet, with its low ballistic coefficient, is very susceptible to the effects of wind, which really limits its long range potential. While it is possible to achieve acceptable accuracy at 600 meters on a calm day, it is too risky on the windy days to really consider this round for military sniping purposes. Due to the lack of penetration and lack of energy, the .223 should only be used in very rare circumstances and only on head shots. There is more then one instance when a target has been shot with a perfectly placed center mass shot, and it failed to incapacitate the target. The very heavy .223 bullets (75gr +) are becoming more popular in long range shooting, but the special barrels and rifles required to shoot these high BC bullets are not available as standard sniper rifles to everyday snipers.

Note: In order to stabilize the 69-gr. Bullets and heavier, the twist on the rifle barrel needs to be at least 1:8"

Recommendation: only use the .223 within 100 meters and only take head shots if at all possible. If the .223 is all that your unit has in the way of a sniper rifle, be sure to keep in mind the limitations of the round.


Sniper Central, click on this and read.


Respectfully,
Marshall

 

[444]

Marshall: That information isn't exactly what we are talking about here. As a police sniper, you would be taking a very risky shot possibly (probably) involving hostages. There is an absolute need to have the guy die instantly. In addition, the guy you are shooting is not shooting at you most likely. You are sitting back at a distance and he is probably not even aware of your presence. You are shooting a scope rifle from a rest and should be able to take a very careful, slow shot and place that shot exactly where you want to.
In this thread, we are talking about home defense usage of firearms: shooting to defend your life at very close range in a dynamic situation where the other guy knows you are there and is in the process of taking offensive aciton against you.
I can assure you from personal experience that a .223 at close range produces a horrible, perment wound. At least as dramatic as a shotgun and in most cases far more dramatic unless the shotgun was fired at contact distance.

 

[Marshall]

444,

I understand that.

OK, we are inside our home, most shots would be under 15-20 yards. You're telling me that a single .223 is going to create more havock on an intruder than a single shot of a 3" to 3 1/2" 00 buck shotgun shell?

Respectully, if I have an intruder break into my home, I hope he is the one with the .223 and I have the shotgun. His whole head may come off.

 

[444]

Yeah, I am going to tell you that it might.
As I mentioned previously, my home defense weapon of choice is a 12 gauge shotgun. But that doesn't mean I am going to go along with some of the ridiculous stuff I read on here (the internet) about the .223 cartridge either (I am not talking about you Marshall).

 

[Omni04]

chances are the intruder wouldn't have a gun, or if he did you would have the initiative, so it boils down to how much of the atcual house will fall with that shot gun blast?

 

[Marshall]

444,

Well, I'm learning more than I knew. And, I guess it that the .223 will do more damage up close than I ever though it would. I didn't take it that would have been speaking of me, I understand thoroughly what you mean about the internet. Thanks for saying so though.

However, don't mind me if I still stay with a shotty.

 

[444]

And you won't be sorry.

 

[355sigfan]

Marshall I respect your opinion. 444 explained it in a very articulate manner. There are some advantges to the shotgun outside of the tactical realm. If you live in a anti gun area you would be better off using a shotgun for home defense. They are also fast into action for the first shot from a chamber empty storage condition. A might bit faster than a AR15 with a loaded mag and empty chamber.

If your using a shotgun I would prefer Federal Tactical buckshot for home defense. This load recoils lightly and paterns well. What it gives up in energy it makes up for in pattern density.
Pat

 

[JShirley]

On the other hand, a shotgun with proper HD ammo will provide a sure stop with most every shot fired.

Hm.

I hear some folks saying that a shotgun is the ultimate home defense piece. I may not totally disagree, but I question what ammo you folks are using?

I've lost all regard for buckshot. Now, how comfortable do y'all feel using a slug for home defense? No? Then, get a rifle.

Personally, I'm fine with either, and I've been using Remington Reduced Recoil Slugs almost exclusively in my shotguns for the last few years. (I killed three deer with RRR slugs, this year, btw.)

You know what? I shot the biggest deer I've ever killed with a RRR slug. Then I tracked him for hours. (He was a TOUGH bastard.) He would've hit the dirt almost instantly if I'd used the .35 Whelen, .308, or .30-06 I used on other deer this year, and I'm pretty certain even a decent .223 would've felled him better.

John

 

[444]

"I've lost all regard for buckshot."

Why ?

 

[JShirley]

Don't get me wrong- I have used buckshot. In fact, the first deer I ever killed was a nice little buck I dropped at 16 with Grandpa's SxS that I fired from the hip. I guess I didn't realize at the time how lucky that shot really was; he dropped like someone switched off the lights.

That same trip, I was not able to ethically shoot at several more deer, because they were out of reasonable buckshot range, though easily within iron-sighted rifle range.

I want versatility, and though the shotgun is versatile in that one can hunt anything at close range with the right ammunition, when using buckshot, that envelope is fairly limited.

At the ranges one can reasonably use buckshot, I can use a slug, and control where my rounds go. Besides the control issue, buckshot run out of energy fast. Combine inexact placement with rapid depleting energy, and you have a round that may not stop your target, even if you do manage to hit it. I've been nearby when someone dumped two rounds of buckshot into a nice little Russian boar. Slugs stopped the boar; examining the carcass, one was
NOT impressed with the buckshot's performance. Hell, I've failed to "one shot stop" a squirrel with buckshot.

It does work great on armadillo at 5 yards, though.

John

 

[Black Snowman]

I opted for the 223 route over the shotgun mainly for penetration. Both good in people and bad in plaster. Using a long barrel (bullpup) and hollowpoints to improve performance in both.

Plus if the home invaders picked up some surplus body armor I still have a chance to break through with the 223. Buckshot will be stopped dead by almost any level of body armor.

Slugs are extremely effecive on people but also on walls. I didn't want to have to worry so much about the neighbors when going for a stop.

So, I ended up with the Bushmaster M17S as my home defense gun. Reliable for me, fun to shoot so I'll practice, plus a balence of stopping power and wall penetration.

But I might replace it with a supressed collapsing stock AR in .50 Beowulf It will be longer and have penetration issues but stopping power is definately there.

 

[tavo94]

M4 is my first choice. Second is the MP5.

 

[44]

It's during discussions about best Home Defense rifles that I end up reconsidering a longslide semiauto pistol with a light mounted on it, with a beam that hits where the gun does - because after I think I've imagined the best rifle, I always wonder if I'd be better off proficient with a handgun like this.
Like maybe a real accurate longslide 1911 like Springfield makes, or the long Glock maybe. A high capacity hot caliber target gun, loose enough to be reliable, that you shoot A LOT and rarely miss with. 44

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[355sigfan]

44

A handgun no matter how accurate and powerfull is still just a handgun. No handgun caliber comes close to the stopping potential of the 223 or the 12 gauge shotgun. Your ability to place fast accurate rounds will also be greatly enhanced with a longgun. Handguns exist not because of their great ability to win gun fights but because they are handy and concealable. Neither of which is an issue in a home defense situation. A handgun should be a back up in the home only to be used till you can get your rifle or shotgun out.
Pat