Best close-quarters defense rifles?

[SOT_II]

Refernces the same data set....again not really difinitive.
It has been proven time and time again that the FBI and lots of the Military's testing is flawed....lest we forget the push of the 9mm as the superior round for law enforcment and military....oddly after all the FBI testing and Army testing the choices change with more knowledge.
If you wanna defend your house with 5.56 or .223, just make sure you don't have glass in it, and that the sheet rock is packed as in the FBI experiment, ok.

There is plenty of research (including testing by Gunsite - no fan of the poodleshooter) to support that 5..56mm poses less of an overpenetration risk in urban scenarios than most pistol caliber rounds - even military 5.56mm NATO FMJ. In fact, some of the military rounds fragment quite well.

Here is a good resource for further info on that subject:

http://www.scottsdalegunclub.com/fa...enetration.html

 

[saltydog452]

Best rifle for home defense?

I dunno if there is a 'best' for anything. Unless you live somewhere your closest neighbor is a mile or two away, or contleplating a new 'action hero' movie script, you might wanna consider either a smooth bore or a shoulder arm chambered for a pistol caliber.

Rifles have longer range and more power. And you are responsible for all of it.


I like my model 92.

salty.

 

[saltydog452]

My apology.

Sorry pal, my previous post was not within the scope of your question.

I guess I was responding to some of the 'replys' to your question, rather than what you asked.

salty.

 

[Doug S]

AK & SKS (although SKS is a little long in tight quarters). Both reliable & cheap to stock ammo.

 

[JShirley]

I was wondering what might be the very best choices for short range, home defense rifles in a modern design. And what caliber would be the most effective?

Good shotgun with appropriate ammunition. I personally use reduced recoil slugs almost exclusively, at this point.

AR in 5.56. I don't love the platform, but they are ergonomic, have good sights, and ammo is plentiful.

Autoloading .308 with 20" or less barrel. I lean towards the FAL, but there are carbine versions of AR-10 and M1A.

With any of these, don't listen to anonymous people telling how the rounds will behave; go out with a decent medium, and put some rounds into it. Look at your penetration, and make an informed decision based on your ability with the platform, and the results you get. I believe you would find this especially true with the varmint rounds you would fire from your .308 rifle or carbine, and fairly true of the 12 gauge slugs, as well.

Part of the your decision process will be in weighing your ability to rapidly put rounds downrange, while considering the power of each round. Most .308 rifles will not be as light as .223 rifles, but each round hits harder. Would you prefer to fire 2x with a .223, or once with a .308? You have to choose a defensive weapon theory, hopefully matched with practical experience firing what you believe your weapon of choice to be.

Good luck,

John

 

[cpileri]

ultimate hi-cap 9mm

If you are still serious about not considering shotguns and longer range weapons, try the 9mm FAL carbine. here:
http://www.rhinelandarms.com/fal9/fal9mm.htm

Personally, its on my list only to be able to use the 71-rd Suomi drums! But loaded with RA9T Winchester Ranger Talon or something it should be a super rifle for the application you specified. After 9/14 put a folding stock on it, get a 16" bbl, and a flash hider or legal suppressor if you can afford it and it should be a quiet, flashless, 'I can't believe I still have so much ammo left, Honey' type of tool!
C-

 

[NEtracker]

A good 12 guage.
AR15 M4gery/carbine (but be aware of what's beyond the target!)

 

[DHart]

Hey... I never said I wouldn't consider a 12-gauge. In fact I have three of them and they're always right close at hand! My first choice! But I'm interested in knowing more about the close quarters rifles for defense, that's all.

 

[PBIR]

Don't let anyone fool you, a pistol caliber carbine (especially .45 acp ) would be a fine choice in the scenario you outlined. I've seen much more than a few guys hit with pistol calibers go directly to the morgue, do not pass the hospital, do not collect $200. Lots of good choices listed here, but the Beretta Storm still has most beat by a mile when you look at the price and versatility.

 

[VaughnT]

Well, I would love to have an AR in .223/5.56, and I will once september rolls by. There's something really cool about that carbine and one will be mine.

Having said that, my primary home-defense weapon is the Marlin Camp Carbine M45. Short, light, accurate -> she does everything I could ask in terms of defense and doesn't have any stigma attached to her. Loaded with Speer Gold Dot +P hollowpoints, she isn't something I'd like to stand in front of.

The only downside, and one reason I sorta regret the purchase, is that there really is not a single thing you can buy to put on this weapon. Seriously, folks, you can't find a barrel shroud or better sights or different stocks (except the Choate folder) or nuthin! That sucks more than I can ever tell you.

What's the point of having this nifty little shooter if you can't trick it out with CQB doodads? Where can I hang my illumination device? I can't even get a fiberoptic front sight!!!

:banghead: :banghead:


I'm thinking an M1Carbine is in my future. That's got plenty of cool factor and will do the job, for sure, with a thirty-round stick stuck in it.

 

[bluecowdawg]

an older model marlin m60 .22lr with 18 rounds. i dont think anyone would put up much fight after catching that much lead, and chances of the rounds overpenetrating some one would not be very high

 

[RevDisk]

But I was wondering what might be the very best choices for short range, home defense rifles in a modern design. And what caliber would be the most effective?

I've been considering a Beretta Storm in .40 or .45 ACP, but what are considered today to be the best short range, close quarters defense rifles? Let's limit the choices to close-quarters use only. (Let's leave out shotguns and longer range weapons.)

Depends on the person, obviously. There is no "best", there are only personal preferences, of course. Use what you're comfortable and accurate with.

If I was not restricted whatsoever, my preference be a UMP-45 select fire. With my current weaponry, a pistol and an AK clone would work fine. In most cases, any carbine would do the job.


My only problem with the M-4 is that they tend to break too easily when you beat something/someone with it.

 

[mrstang01]

VaughnT, I agree with you, but I've been looking for a folder to put on my Camp 45 when the AWB dies, and haven't been able to find one of those either. The wood stock on mine is too pretty for CQB activities, and I think it would be super handy with a folder.

I'd like to see someone come out with new folders for it, but doubt it will happen since Marlin quit making them. Seems like there's a market for them, not sure what Marlin was thinking.

Having said that, my primary home-defense weapon is the Marlin Camp Carbine M45. Short, light, accurate -> she does everything I could ask in terms of defense and doesn't have any stigma attached to her. Loaded with Speer Gold Dot +P hollowpoints, she isn't something I'd like to stand in front of.

 

[Hand_Rifle_Guy]

Similar to the Marlin Camp series are the Ruger PC-9 and PC-40 rifles. They run on readily available pistol mags, and are reputedly very handy and easy to use/hit with without fearing over-penetration. Selection of proper ammo can help this, of course, to wit: don't load yer rifle with fmj's!

In a similar vein is the Kel-tec Sub-2000, which as I understand it can be ordered with a mag-well to fit any given available popular autoloading pistol such as Glock, H&K, Springfield, Witness, S&W, etc.

Like the Marlin Camps, these semi-auto pistol-caliber guns have almost no recoil, alllowing for swift, controlled, and above all accurate fire, as any given rifle is much, MUCH easier to shoot accurately than any pistol, which is the entire point of the M-1 carbine. Even at across-the-room distances, "you can't miss fast enough with a handgun," as all it takes is a slight hand movement to re-direct the barrel. With their 16" barrels, these carbines are also short enough to not hinder movement within the close confines of the home interior whilst checking out those ominous "bumps in the night." At the same time, the 'longer than a handgun' length enhances the already low-powered ballistics of all pistol rounds. Anoither saving grace is that the longer barrels are a bit quieter, and less damaging to hearing, than the usual 5-ish inch barrel of the typical handgun, and are a LOT quieter than just about all of the rifle rounds.

Additionally, the long guns provide ample space for mounting a light, making the task of target identification a bit simpler, an important factor in home defense when you don't want to shoot the family dog or the wayward teenage son sneaking in late.

I suppose you could add the Ruger semi-auto .44 mag Deerfield carbine to this short list, but it's 'almost a high-powered gun' ammunition pressure range makes for real worries about significant overpenetration and hearing loss, although concerns arbout shooting your next-door neighbor are a lot less than you'd get with a 7.62 x 39 or a .30-30.

 

[DHart]

Hand_Rifle... do you know of any .357mag or .44mag ammo that was designed to be optimum defense loads from 16" carbines? I haven't seen any ammo manufacturer state that they have any pistol caliber loads which were designed for optimal expansion and penetration from short barrel carbines.

 

[cslinger]

We have lots of choices. We have AR's and AK's that we could go to at a moments notice but in reality I would most likely grab my Remington 870 Marine Magnum and Sheslinger would grab her Benelli Nova assuming that a handgun will most likely be the primary weapon at hand.

All that being said I am currently trying to get around to testing Win White box HP ammo through the following as I think it would make a dandy little .45 caliber HD carbine.

Our USP with M3 conversion and KOBRA. Picture courtesy of Oleg Volk.

 

[Hand_Rifle_Guy]

Whoa...

There's a gun in ^that^ picture? I hadn't noticed...

Dhart: Don't know of any off the top of my head, but I'm not neccessarily up on the latest iterations offered. Handgun ammo is set up to function optimally in handguns. Out of a carbine barrel, I imagine some types of bullets could actually be overdriven, which could limit penetration in lighter-bullet loadings for the .357. Heavier-bullet hunting loads at high velocities are deliberately designed to limit expansion in order to assure penetration to help the marginal-for-game .357 be more reliable. Humans are a bit thinner and are not as tough as deer, and I would be concerned about through-and-through shots. However, the additional speed in the lighter jhp loads, while potentialy limiting penetration due to violent bullet expansion and fragmentation, on the other hand deliver additional energy to the target, and effectively hit harder. Whether or not that would actually prove to be more effective at stopping a criminal assualt is something I'm not informed enough on to take other than a guess at. More definitive answers would require testing involving measuring the amount of energy transfer to some sort of ballistic pendulum set-up using a reliable tissue simulant, to wit shooting blocks of meat or gelatin (or maybe stacked rabbits, if you want to get picky about it. ) that are positioned on a hanging platform of some sort, observing and recording the results, and then extrapolating the results on criminals from that. (Oi! That's a bunch of work! Anybody gotta research grant?) It's a neat idea, but it's a bit beyond my resources at the moment.

For the .44 mag, I usually think in terms of any given load absolutely will go all the way through a human being shot with it, with considerable leftover velocity and energy. That's one of the reasons .44 mag usually isn't considered the best choice for home/self defense. The .44 was developed as a hunting round, and humans can be thought of as thin-skinned game in that sense. There are several "medium velocity" loadings available for the .44 that are aimed at the defense market, but I imagine tacking on an additional 300-400 fps out of a rifle barrel would sort of defeat the purpose of the slower load. In that particular instance, I'd probably go with a premium-grade .44 special self-defense loading that's got a bullet well-known for having a very low-velocity threshold of expansion such as the Remington Golden sabre, and carry some faith in the slower-but-heavier large bullet diameter to help cover the "if-it-doesn't-expand" contingency without being so concerned I'm going to drill the neighbors. "Big bullets let in a lot of air and let out a lot of blood."---Elmer Kieth.

Beyond that, and I'm in WAYYY over my head. I'm no terminal ballistics expert. Heck, I'm probably off the deep end allready...

 

[Ash]

Stick with a lever-action. I'm an AK fan, but in the residence or for home-defense, especially in disaster situations where you defend against looters, a nice lever-action gun isn't going to look as evil as an AK or AR or any H&K design. The 30-30 beats 7.62x39 and a good Marlin will be utterly reliable. Plus, should you have to go to court, a lever action makes you look like anyone else, whereas an assault rifle makes you out to be some kook militia type. Now, that wasn't a bash against militias or anything along those lines. However, a malicious prosecutor could easily paint a picture that could frighten a jury. If that's just too old school, stick with a Ruger Mini-14 or 30 as those look more benign than an AK, even if accuracy is basically the same.

Now, I've owned my share of FAL's, SKS's, and AK's so this isn't an attack against them. It is only an observation about perceptions. An AKM can be perceived as something of great evil whereas a lever gun looks like what grandpa used to hunt with and what hangs so nicely above a mantle. The same things goes with a shot-gun. Don't deck it out in trench-warfare gadgets such as a heat shield and a bayonet lug nor pistol grip. Get a nice, short-barreled wood-stocked pump that looks legitimately like something you might take duck hunting. That way if you do have to defend home and hearth, it's with your trusty sportsmans gun and not a street-sweeper (even if the only differenced between the two is cosmetic). In my neck of the country where hurricanes happen, I am always ready to defend my home should the worst happen (I lived through Hurricane Fredrick). But it is much easier to look like an upright citizen with a Marlin than with an AK. And, in doing so, you protect your rights to own the AK by not scaring too many voters.

Ash

 

[natedog]

Show me a few examples where the type of firearm (non-NFA) used in self-defense made a difference in the ruling of a defensive shoot, and I'll buy that. A clean shoot is a clean shoot.

 

[444]

Man, talk about some axes to grind.

Let me give you a sound piece of advice: when you ask a question like this on the internet, everyone will give their opinion (not facts). Most of the time their answer will be the same answer as they would give to the question of what is their faviorite gun. In other words, the answers are based on emotion rather than fact.
If you want an answer based MORE on fact, look at what the professionals (the people doing this for a living) use and what the people that train them recommend.


Note: Bring the sights to your eye, not your eye to the sights.

 

[JShirley]

I suppose you could add the Ruger semi-auto .44 mag Deerfield carbine ...although concerns arbout shooting your next-door neighbor are a lot less than you'd get with a 7.62 x 39 or a .30-30.

It seems to me that a ballistic-tip 125-grain .308 traveling about 2400 fps would penetrate considerably less than a 240 grain .429 traveling more slowly.

John

 

[Wildalaska]

Opening this up to sub guns are we? Gimme a Sterling then, the ultimate bullet hose....

WildandprovenincombattooAlaska

 

[Ash]

Indeed, I have no imperical data to support my supposition. Yet, we all know what gets demonized, what gets condemned, and what gets all the attention for banning importation and production. It remains a fact that people will be aghast when you tell them that a place was held up by an AK-47, but if they used a 30-30, you never hear mention of the rifle. I keep an M1A because I believe the 2nd Ammendment exists for the defense of the country as well as personal defense, and should a SHTF scenario occur, I would rather have it over my Marlin any day.

But the Branch Davidians were not burned out because of a collection of lever-actions and hunting rifles.

Ash

 

[MrMurphy]

Getting back to the subject........


The AR-15 with a 16.5" barrel and softpoint loads will penetrate body armor yet hitting a wall will not penetrate as much as a pistol caliber JHP. Low recoil, high efficiency, just LOUD!

The 9mm, .40 or .45 pistol caliber carbines will work well, they are semiauto-only submachine guns in basic form and function for the most part. The Beretta Storm, Keltec Sub2000, Ruger PC carbines all work well.

The M1 carbine is between rifle and pistol in power, with softpoint loads the .30 carbine will definitely do the job. There are lots of dead Germans, Chinese, Koreans and Vietnamese to prove this point. You may have to hit him two or three times at 100+ yards, but at close range, the power equivalent with softpoints is equivalent to a .357 Magnum.

A .357 lever action would also do the trick if it's what you had at hand.

The AK and SKS will certainly put the man down but without softpoint loads etc will overpenetrate a great deal. I kept an AK for house defense next to my 12ga but I also had a bunch of fields around my place (basically a free fire zone) at the time.


The one time I saw an AK used defensively 20 rounds were fired and the attention was on the fact two bangers tried to rob the guy (Mistaken identity) and he sent them packing. He lived in an apt complex so there were a lot of stray 7.62's flying around but surprisingly he didn't hit ANYONE with a stray round (and they were all over the place)... I know the photographer from my station who covered it, a retired platoon sergeant of the 3rd ID and he said it looked like a fire team had hit the place.

 

[44]

A lot of this has already been mentioned, but if a civilian wants to use a rifle for self defense within the existing self defense rules (probably well inside 25 yards) seems like the pistol cartridge carbine might almost be the only one he should consider.

Compared to battle rifles they can be short, lightweight and fast, have less indoor blast, less chance of serious over-penetration with the right bullets - with the big advantage of hits being easier than with a handgun, so there's less chance of putting stray bullets into the neighborhood, or military bullets into the next county. As someone mentioned, these could be your total undoing.

Personally, I would pick an accurate lightweight gun that RELIABLY shoots one of the top-stopper self defense super-expanding hollowpoints in 9mm, 40, 45acp, or 357. No FMJ or solid bullets because of their penetration and ricochet. 44