Best close-quarters defense rifles?

[mpthole]

Aawww heck, since this thread has now hit 6 pages, I might as well add my 2 cents.

After reading this article on home defense ammo for shotguns, I switched to #1 buck. It patterns really nicely out of my M1S90 at 20 feet - which is the furthest shot I could take in my house.

That said... I would also use my Bushmaster 16" AR with M193 rounds and a SureFire.

 

[student]

a pointy stick!!!

Seriously, for home defense you should have the upper hand knowing the terrain, how to be quiet, where stuff is, barking dog or screaming toddler assaulting intruders. Any weapon should do. I am currently taken with the very silent tomahawk. If you are somewhere else and NEED the best close quarters defense rifle, I suggest you go home where the pointy stick works well.

Personally, I would like to retain some hearing following a confrontation, thus excluding most high velocity rifle rounds. Had a 45 glock go off about 2-3 feet from my head that was pointed about 1 foot away from me. Couldn't hear sh-t for a good long time, felt like I was on some kind of crazy drug trip, although I was glad to be alive.

That said I like a moderate powered carbine 9mm-45 cal with about a 16" barrel. I prefer the heavier hollow points as they should expand well with the added velocity from a carbine. Plenty of power....still can hear later on. If for some reason drugged-up body-armored hulligans assault my home, I guess I could sacrifice some hearing to lob some 7.62x39 or even steel core 7.62x54 (this may set the house on fire) at them.

 

[355sigfan]

Student the problem is your pistol caliber carbine is actually more dangerious to others who live around you if you fire in your home than a 223. And if you hit your target the 223 is far more destructive to the badguy than any pistol round. So your increasing your liability and decreasing your stopping power.
Pat

 

[lbmii]

mpthole,

The site you posted is excellent. I found the Firearms Technical Institute site about a year ago and use it for reference all the time. The Firearms Technical Institute site no longer seems to be active.

I am a strong advocate of using either 16 pellet #1 buck or 12 pellet Single Ought buck instead of the traditional 9 pellet double ought buck.

There is one thing that was mentioned in the link that I found to be incorrect. The link stated that Federal Classic 2 ¾-inch #1 buck load has a shot cup. This is not the case. Also I patterned the three different brands on #1 buckshot and found that Federal Classic had the widest spread. Winchester had the tightest spread and Remington was in-between.


Below is Federal No 1 buck 16 pellets at 6 paces (about 7 yards) Mossberg 590 A1 Double Action 20" barrel modified choke.

Below is Remington No 1 buck 16 pellets at 6 paces 20" barrel modified choke.

Below is Winchester No 1 buck 16 pellets at 6 paces 20" barrel modified choke.

I tested a lot of buckshot and posted the photos here:

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthre...;threadid=83909

 

[Sulaco]

Not neccessarily in this order, my favorite close-quarters defense implements are;

 

[GunGoBoom]

Well, I'm no expert, but the gun I would grab for home defense first is a handgun. As for long guns, here's what I would grab, in order, if the guns went T.U. in succession (not counting nearly unattainable MP5s):

1. Rem 870 (or Mossy, Winchester, etc.) pump, short bbl, No. 4 buckshot, 12 ga
2. Bushmaster M17 bullpup, .223 (lotsa 20 rounders)
3. AK74-type (SAR2, etc) rifle, 5.45x39
4. My Mech-Tech Upper with G20 lower and Redfield Red dot. That's 10mm auto times 15+1, in a very handy setup.

Personally, I don't have #3 at present (SAR2), but plan to. I have the others.

Remember what people have said: The .223s/5.56 nato and 5.45x39 will apparently penetrate walls and endanger innocents LESS than a pistol caliber round or a 7.62x39 or 7.62 nato, so those small caliber centerfires would be the best choice, in all likelihood. The smallish buckshot in a shotgun will also ease overpenetration concerns, relative to a pistol caliber carbine. Notwithstanding that I have the 10mm carbine setup, I don't see much use at all for a pistol caliber carbine, truth be told, UNLESS its a stealth operation using a 9x19, .380, or .32 loaded subsonic with suppressor. Of course any .223s would work - AR15s/M4geries, AR180Bs, M17S, Daewoo K2, Galil, G36 clone, SAR3 or Saiga .223, KelTec SU16Bravo, even a Mini-14 in a pinch (after all, you're not trying to hit anything past 20 yards. ).

Bottom line here:

1. If stealth is a concern, suppressed 9x19 carbine with 147 subsonics.

(If stealth is not a concern: )
2. If overpenetration/innocents is a concern, and I anticipate a lot of shootin' goin' down, OR anticipate needing to penetrate SBA on the enemy, then something in .223 or 5.45x39. This is probably the best overall choice in the majority of urban/suburban situations.
3. If overpenetration/innocents is a concern, and I DON'T anticipate more than a few rounds needed (such as home defense), AND don't anticipate needing to penetrate SBA, then a 12 guage with No 4 buckshot or smaller, and extras in the sidesaddle.
4. If overpenetration is not a concern (no likely innocents nearby), OR I anticipate a high likelihood of having to shoot enemies through obstacles like small trees, walls, car doors, etc., then something in 7.62nato, 7.62x39, or possibly a 10mm carbine or slug-loaded shotgun (10mm or slug gun would be nice UNLESS I think I need to penetrate SBA - body armor).

Category 4 is ideal for CQB in theory, particularly 7.62 nato, because it can do it all againt the enemy - but it's only ideal if you DON'T have one of the other concerns: stealth or overpenetration/harming innocents/friendlies - and the latter is OFTEN a major concern. More I think about, more it seems that an AK74 type is purt near the best tradeoff of everything if you had to have just ONE, particularly on a budget. Now, get one of those nice bullpup conversions for it out of shotgun news, and I think you'd really have something! (though in truth, I think the conversions are for 7.62x39s only - bah). If you're really on a budget, a 12 ga with a pipe full of small buckshot or large birdshot, with 4-6 slugs in the sidesaddle *just in case* is a pretty decent solution.

There, now you have an excuse to get at least 4 different guns - you can thank me later.

Which knife is that Sulaco?

 

[ducktapehero]

I gotta go with Sulaco's picks. Although instead of the knife as my 3rd option I have a nice heavy Mag-lite.

And if you hit your target the 223 is far more destructive to the badguy than any pistol round.

The energy and muzzle velocity of some 357 Magnum loads out of a rifle rival 30-30 loads. That's definitely in the same class of stopping power as a 223. As mentioned however, auto pistol loads pick up little energy from a rifle length barrel.

 

[GunGoBoom]

Ducktapehero, I don't think you can stretch the incapacitating power of .357 mag nearly as far as .223 because of the tumbling/yawing that a .223 (or 5.45x39) bullet does upon entering flesh, when launched at relatively high velocities - far more destructive, I believe, than any pistol caliber carbine, including .44 mag. Not to mention that it will penetrate SBA whereas pistol caliber carbine usually will not.

DHart, I like your choice too, though - a lot! That is a nice handy, versatile carbine for the money - FO sights and all - dang I want one now.

 

[355sigfan]

The energy and muzzle velocity of some 357 Magnum loads out of a rifle rival 30-30 loads. That's definitely in the same class of stopping power as a 223. As mentioned however, auto pistol loads pick up little energy from a rifle length barrel.
END QUOTE

Sorry but this is not correct. The 30 30 itself does not compare to the 223 because of the fragmentation and stretch cavity much less the 357 mag from a rifle.
Pat

 

[ducktapehero]

The 30 30 itself does not compare to the 223 because of the fragmentation and stretch cavity much less the 357 mag from a rifle.

The 223 can make some ghastly wounds under certain condtitions but in other conditions it simply makes a 22 caliber hole in someone.

I'm not saying that the 30-30 or similar round(7.62x39, 357 out of a rifle etc)is the superior round but the latter 3 rounds are legal for hunting whitetail deer whereas the 223 isn't in most areas of the country. I know that a deer isn't the same as a man but when bullet designs fail(and they often do) then all you have to rely upon is the size of the bullet itself to do damage. If worst comes to worst I'd rather put a 30 or 35 caliber hole in someone than a 22 cailber one.(Actually I'd rather put a 50 caliber hole in them but the rifles chambered in it are a bit unwieldy for close in self defense work)

OTOH when the design works as intended the 223 is indeed an awesome stopper. It does have a massive stretch cavity as you 223 fans like to point out. I haven't heard what the size of stretch cavity the 357 rifle has but according to Chuck Hawks(about 3/4 down the attached link) out of a handgun it produces a football sized stretch cavity. Which is quite respectable.

http://www.chuckhawks.com/beginners_stopping_power.htm

 

[355sigfan]

The 223 can make some ghastly wounds under certain condtitions but in other conditions it simply makes a 22 caliber hole in someone.

END QUOTE

True but those conditions where it makes a 22 caliber hole is at long range. The 223 loses stopping power exponentially past 200 yards or so. This is a valid concern for our fighting men in Iraq. But it should not be a concern to Joe Blow home defender.

As for the hunting caliber rules. Thats an subjective standard. In your state a 38 special would be legal to hunt with due to bore size out of a rifle. Yet a 223 would not. Do you deer hunt with a 38 special. Here in Alaska I know a lot of people who hunt with 223's and use them to take Caribou. (raindeer) So the 223 is more than capable of taking deer sized game with proper load selection and shot placement. I respect the 357 mag as a handgun round. But its stretch cavity does not go to the point of ripping tissue like the 223 does. Anyway stay safe.

Pat

 

[ducktapehero]

The difference between a 38 and a 357 is that a 357(rifle) is a respectable deer stopper while the 38 just isn't up to snuff. And you're right the 223 is probably a better stopper than a 357(or 30-30) rifle but like I said, IMHO it puts it in the same class. I would guess that with a good COM hit, the difference in stopping power between them wouldn't be too far apart.

Although I will concede the rounds I have mentioned would penetrate through more housing material but I live in a semi rural area so it's not as much of an issue for me as it is for other people.

The reason I even posted at all was that ALL pistol caliber carbines were lumped together. A 45acp out of a carbine behaves about the same as a 45acp out of a handgun. The 357mag out of a rifle, OTOH becomes a whole different animal with a LOT more power.

 

[44]

I usually end up thinking that these are the most important things for a self-defense gun that meets the present rules for self-defense with guns:

1 - A round that puts an end to the attack when you hit the zone with one or two shots.

2 - This round does not exit with enough energy to seriously injure anyone.

3 - You are really fast with the gun in placing your first and second shots in the zone.

4 - You do not miss with this gun (and lose the fight while you launch stray bullets into the neighborhood).

5 - These things should apply out to 25 yards.

44

 

[Snowjob]

ducktapehero , is that a 4-cell MagLight? I'm trying to figure the muzzle velocity on mine.

Having kids running around, I no longer keep my glock or S&W on/in the nightstand, so it is now no nearer than 3 seconds away. Just in case, I've got a nice pinata bat next to the bed.

 

[delta789]

Best CQB gun EVER...

The problem with electing any firearm the "Best CQB weapon" is that there are too many variables. CQB battle typically takes place in urban environments. Therefore, the tight spaces. If we're Green Berets in Afghanistan trying to wack some tangos, the best choice is going to be a bullpup rifle configuration. If, however, you're a DEA agent trying to take down some drug runners, and you are worried about civilian casualties in a building, an SMG chambered in .45ACP is probably your best bet. Great stopping power, low penetration. If however, you're Homer Simpson and you live in suburbia with a couple of kids, a handgun in 9mm or .45, or a shorty 12 ga. shotgun is probably your best bet. You don't need hardcore penetration, that would in fact endanger your neighbors. It all depends on the job description. Just ask yourself "What kind of situation will I most likely find myself in?" Then go out and buy a reliable, compact, comfortable weapon that is chambered for ammunition easy to come by. And then go practice. Thats all there is to it folks.

 

[RP88]

for RIFLES...just about anything in .223 will work great. As said, low liability, high power, easy follow-ups due to low recoil.

However, I would still opt for a 12ga. pump shotgun, if only because of the nearly truly-invincible design

 

[gdcpony]

I will reference previous post to save time typing:

My one daughter (7yrs) has a lever action .22 rifle that she plinks shot gun shells with. The wife has my shotgun (rifled bore) with #6 lead shot (won't kill, but will hurt like hell) and a couple slugs if they don't get the hint (though she would probably miss). I have my AR, and my other daughter (10yrs) has a bow she is VERY good with (a .410 too, but she'd probably grab the bow). We also have a couple other things locked away that would be no fun for an intruder... We could add a very protective husky and even it up... It would take a coordinated effort just to round us up, much less deal with us armed.
As far as tactics, we all know the rules. ID first (discreetly by peeking), then arm, then ID again (verbally), then warn, then fire. I have the only weapon likely to go through walls (unless the wife loads the slugs which isn't likely) and still carry energy which is intentional. The lights are left on in one area only at a point they would have to go through to get to us giving a chance for ID and or shots. We know where the light switches are not them. I won't say we got it all planned out, but I have taken steps to make sure it would be difficult to come in and have your way in this house. Heck, we don't lock doors around here, it isn't neighborly. I live by a Marine tactic: Be polite to everyone, but always have a plan to kill them.

I got it handled. Weapons and rounds are a distant second to knowing what to do and have SOMETHING to do it with.

 

[Deer Hunter]

.72 caliber Brown Bess.

The smoke screen allows for a tactical escape.

 

[amd6547]

I have been a fan of pistol caliber carbines for a long time, and have owned several. I have recently switched to the M1 carbine, got one from CMP. I love it's light weight, it's sights, and the soft point 30 carbine load is a proven SD cartridge. Quite accurate at 100 yards. I also own an AK and an AR, but the M1 carbine gets the nod for normal beyond the pistol home defense.

 

[Rifleman 173]

M-4 clone that shoots 7.62 X 39 ammo. Best of two worlds. Bigger, more effective bullet and the handling characteristics of an M-4. Mount a red dot or scope on it, zero it at 50 yards and you're good to 300 meters or so.

 

[Hostile Amish]

Any AR-15 with a 16'' - 20'' bbl. using Hornady TAP.

 

[Dirtpile]

Necromancer Alert!!!

With that aside, it really depends on what you feel most comfortable with. If you're too worried about over-penetration or where your bullet might end up if you pick up an AR, will you take the shot?
Same goes for the pistol calibler carbines and buckshot.
This is what should really be taken into consideration. Especially when collateral damage is one of your concerns. Whatever choice you make should be whatever is most comfortable and practical for YOU. Whether it be a handgun, black rifle or boomstick. If your close quarters are truly close then handguns should be at the top of the list. Though if you have more room then a carbine or shotgun will serve you better. Now ask youself "Which is the best fit for me?" A 12ga. pump while reliable and deadly as hell isn't the best choice for everybody. Even with practice not everybody can make quick follow-up shots or swing a pumper all to well. An autoloader might work for some of these people but at the cost of reliabilty. Then there are those people who just can't get the swing of a shotgun at all. They would be better off with a rifle. Now the question becomes "Which scares me the least? A .223 or a 9mm?" This refering to potential bystander casualties. The answer to this question should determine the choice, because if you're too afraid to actaullly take a shot why bother to even pick up the gun in the first place.

And now on to what I would ideally choose to pick up, which would be a single fire MP5 or CX4 with lightwieght Gold-Dots do their easy handling, soft shooting, low noise/flash and good capacity.

 

[Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow]

Did we really need to revive?

Anyhow, the answer lies within reach:

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=418805&highlight=xcr

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=420996&highlight=xcr

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=404487&highlight=xcr

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=400528&highlight=xcr

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=397093&highlight=xcr

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=393577&highlight=xcr

etc.

Caliber of your choice: 7.62x39, 5.56.x45, 6.8 SPC.

.72 caliber Brown Bess.

The smoke screen allows for a tactical escape.

Now that's funny right there.

 

[H2O MAN]

If my Glock 21 is not up to the task I'll pick up my Norinco T56SHTF and have at it

 

[Travis Bickle]

.72 caliber Brown Bess.

The smoke screen allows for a tactical escape.

Bro, do you know Gecko45?