Best out of the box AR for around $1k

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Charles Daly M4

Just a couple years ago I picked up a Charles Daly made M4 configuration with flat top, mil spec throughout (yeah, milspec is an over used word anymore). It ran $900 but I did some horse trading and got it.
This was after comparing it to S&W, Bushy, and a Colt that was on the rack. It has performed well with any of my reloads with various brass, wolf steel case and commercial ammo. CD got into the M4 game at the time, and seemed to have done it right, at least with the rifle I have.
Going from all my years with the Army, I have been happy with it an its performance.
 
You're the first and only person I've heard of that has damaged that area of the lower and found it needing replacement.

5r, marketing gimmick? No two lands pressing on opposing areas of the bullet is a gimmick? Had me sold when it shot better than my old Colt, resting, prone, or standing on hind legs like a man. That's some mighty fine marketing ploys.

It is 4140. Works good in car engines, so good enough for me!

meanmrmustard, you've been all over this forum touting how great the Smith Sport is and seem to take personal offense when someone disagrees. Hey, I admitted that it's a nice rifle for the price. I also admitted that it shot well. The fact of the matter is that the Sport is their "cheap" rifle and they had to cut corners to be able to bring it to market at its selling price. I'm not saying that there isn't value there. All I'm saying is that corners were cut. Even Smith recognizes this. If I remember right, the Sport uses 4140 for the barrels, but their M&P-15 uses 4150.

My opinion is that the better than average accuracy of Smith is due to the lack of chrome lining, not due to the 5R rifling, but I'll get to that. In any case, to say that there is something to 5R, just because the Smith shoots more accurately than your old Colt only shows that your testing method is lacking, since you have a whole test lot of TWO. All you can really say is that your Smith shoots more accurately than your Colt and this could be for any number of reasons.

As far as the trigger guard goes, are you proposing that it never happens because you've never seen it? I don't just use my rifle to shoot off of a rest at a range. For the times that I take my AR with me, I choose that rifle because it is tough, runs well in adverse conditions and is modular; so if something does get bent or broken, I can just swap the part out.

Tex, I'm a little surprised to see that you had this to say...
You talk about how their is no proof that 5r helps.. let me see your proof it doesnt help..just saying

I've also noted that you have quite a few posts on this forum giving opinions and making recommendations as though you have some experience with the AR platform; yet you have a thread running because you are having a very simple problem with a bolt stop that you can't figure out. There's nothing wrong with having a problem and asking for help, but it does indicate to me that you perhaps, do not have the experience that you are leading others to believe that you have. I became more convinced of this when it became apparent that you were unfamiliar with using ejection patterns to help diagnose problems and you had no idea what M193 was.

In any case, I'll answer your question. Over the past few years, messing with ARs and bolt actions, we (me and by buddies) have experimented with probably a dozen or so barrels. Barrels from Krieger, Rock, Bartlein, Pac Nor, etc. Some were three groove, some four groove, some 5 groove and some six groove. There were standard lands and grooves, polygonal and ratchet. What I've found is that a good quality barrel will usually shoot really well. No particular rifling exhibited any accuracy advantage over any other. As I said, I saw nothing that would lead me to believe that 5r offers any advantage over any other rifling, all other things being equal. What I have found that makes a difference is chrome lining. Barrels that are chrome lined do give something up in the accuracy department. The exception to this seems to be the Pac Nor (Noveske) barrels, which seem to exhibit very good accuracy with good ammunition.

What further confirmed my findings was a conversation that I had with the guys at Krieger. When I called to order my last barrel, I asked about the 5r rifling. The guy told me that I could have it if I wanted, but it really made no difference. The only reason they carry them is because people ask for them. I ultimately just told them to send me whatever I could get the fastest, which turned out to be a four groove version.

I'm not trying to knock anyone's equipment. I already said it, the Smith, and a few others, are nice for the price, especially if you're just going to be taking it to the range and plinking or leaving it at home for whatever role.

Guns are like anything else. There's good and there's good enough. From what I understand the OP has $1K to spend on a rifle so I don't see why he should settle for good enough when he can get good.
 
My S&W was one of the first in house builds after they parted from Stag. Mine is a chrome lined, non 5R barrel. It is my goto gun. I have yet to find one part from my DD V4 that is not interchangable. The S&W is as accurate as any other brand I have run. Me personally, I will part with my DD to get a LaRue or an LMT. My Smith will remain here though. I hold Smith on a higher platform just due to the great service I have had with them. To be honest the BMC is a great choice, it is mainly what stamp you want on the reciever and what twist in the barrel. There are a few differences in all of the brands but not as much when you get in the $1000+ price range. It is usually true, you get what you pay for...
 
The 34 things that companies do to save cost on your AR

I sent this to Bushmaster: Do you use any of these methods?
1. Use cheap extruded or cast charging handle instead of proper forged charging handle. 2. Cheap shot-filled or plastic buffer instead of correct military rifle or carbine buffer. 3. 4140 barrel steel instead of 4150 MIL-B-11595. 4. Don't proof test the barrel or bolt. 5. No need for magnetic particle inspection of barrel or bolt. 6. Don't test-fire the rifle prior to selling it.
7. Replace heat-shielded handguard with lower grade plastic and no heat shield handguards. 8. Use the same front sight base for every model instead of F-marked front sight base for flattops. 9. Cast front sight base instead of forged. 10. Cast upper and lower receivers. 11. Plastic upper and lower receivers. 12. Have a bunch of uppers that don't quite meet the Picatinny spec? We'll take them at a discount! 13. Torquing and staking the gas key is something the customer can do. 14. No chrome-lining. 15. Why buy chrome-silicon springs designed for the weapon when we can use a cheaper steel and cut them to fit? 16. That part is only a little out of spec. We can make it work with a little grinding and save money on parts too! 17. Why use trained monkeys for assembly when regular monkeys work for half and can do the job almost as well? 18. Make so many exceptions to your "lifetime warranty" that it will be impossible for anyone to ever make a valid claim against your "warranty."19. Nobody will ever notice a few .001" difference on that part. 20. Our patented spray-paint finish is much better than anodizing.
21. Shipping every rifle with an HBAR profile to save machining costs, even if it is an entry rifle/"lightweight" carbine. 22. Replace metal parts with plastic -plastic magazine release, trigger guard or delta ring. 23. Use an Unmarked/mismarked A2 Elevation Adjustment Knob for the rear sight. 24. Plastic A2 trapdoors in the butt of the rifle stock. 25. Replace forged AR15 hammer with cast hammer. 26. No drain hole in stock screw. 27. Dremel cut feed ramps instead of feed ramps cut prior to anodizing. 28. Use cheaper cast/extruded receiver extension instead of military extension (different diameter also). 29. No parkerizing under the FSB. 30. Straight pins or even roll pins instead of taper pins in FSB. 31. Using A2 windage drums on detachable carry handles. 32. Don't mark the barrel with chambering or twist rate. 33. Don't stake the castle nut in place. 34. Don't shot-peen the bolt during manufacturing.
 
Reply I got from Bushmaster

1. NO
2. NO
3. NO
4. NO
5. NO
6. NO
7. NO
8. YES
9. NO
10. NO
11. YES-Carbon 15 models
12. NO AND NO
13. NO
14. NO
15. NO
16. NO
17. NO all of our monkey are highly trained and current with all vaccinations
18. NO IT’S ONE YEAR FROM DATE OF PURCHASE
19. NO
20. NO
21. NO
22. NO
23. NO
24. YES
25. NO
26. YES
27. NO
28. NO
29. YES
30. NO
31. NO
32. NO
33. NO
34. NO
 
Wow, the fact that you got a reply at all from Bushmaster says something for the company.
 
Bushmaster is really good to me as far as customer service. I have had alot of questions about my BA50, they have been great. They are even sending me a few jars Moly Slide, for use on the trigger and hammer. I quote " we are sending you a couple of jars of Moly Slide, which should last a lifetime". To beat all , no charge what so ever. I had always avoided Bushmaster, and had no reason to, but they are really proving themselves to me.
 
very good post, tonyangel.

as far as 5r goes, if it were everything it's cracked up to be, every top barrel mfr, would be using it on every barrel. check with the guys that shoot benchrest, and see what barrels they are using.
 
meanmrmustard, you've been all over this forum touting how great the Smith Sport is and seem to take personal offense when someone disagrees. Hey, I admitted that it's a nice rifle for the price. I also admitted that it shot well. The fact of the matter is that the Sport is their "cheap" rifle and they had to cut corners to be able to bring it to market at its selling price. I'm not saying that there isn't value there. All I'm saying is that corners were cut. Even Smith recognizes this. If I remember right, the Sport uses 4140 for the barrels, but their M&P-15 uses 4150.

My opinion is that the better than average accuracy of Smith is due to the lack of chrome lining, not due to the 5R rifling, but I'll get to that. In any case, to say that there is something to 5R, just because the Smith shoots more accurately than your old Colt only shows that your testing method is lacking, since you have a whole test lot of TWO. All you can really say is that your Smith shoots more accurately than your Colt and this could be for any number of reasons.

As far as the trigger guard goes, are you proposing that it never happens because you've never seen it? I don't just use my rifle to shoot off of a rest at a range. For the times that I take my AR with me, I choose that rifle because it is tough, runs well in adverse conditions and is modular; so if something does get bent or broken, I can just swap the part out.

Tex, I'm a little surprised to see that you had this to say...


I've also noted that you have quite a few posts on this forum giving opinions and making recommendations as though you have some experience with the AR platform; yet you have a thread running because you are having a very simple problem with a bolt stop that you can't figure out. There's nothing wrong with having a problem and asking for help, but it does indicate to me that you perhaps, do not have the experience that you are leading others to believe that you have. I became more convinced of this when it became apparent that you were unfamiliar with using ejection patterns to help diagnose problems and you had no idea what M193 was.

In any case, I'll answer your question. Over the past few years, messing with ARs and bolt actions, we (me and by buddies) have experimented with probably a dozen or so barrels. Barrels from Krieger, Rock, Bartlein, Pac Nor, etc. Some were three groove, some four groove, some 5 groove and some six groove. There were standard lands and grooves, polygonal and ratchet. What I've found is that a good quality barrel will usually shoot really well. No particular rifling exhibited any accuracy advantage over any other. As I said, I saw nothing that would lead me to believe that 5r offers any advantage over any other rifling, all other things being equal. What I have found that makes a difference is chrome lining. Barrels that are chrome lined do give something up in the accuracy department. The exception to this seems to be the Pac Nor (Noveske) barrels, which seem to exhibit very good accuracy with good ammunition.

What further confirmed my findings was a conversation that I had with the guys at Krieger. When I called to order my last barrel, I asked about the 5r rifling. The guy told me that I could have it if I wanted, but it really made no difference. The only reason they carry them is because people ask for them. I ultimately just told them to send me whatever I could get the fastest, which turned out to be a four groove version.

I'm not trying to knock anyone's equipment. I already said it, the Smith, and a few others, are nice for the price, especially if you're just going to be taking it to the range and plinking or leaving it at home for whatever role.

Guns are like anything else. There's good and there's good enough. From what I understand the OP has $1K to spend on a rifle so I don't see why he should settle for good enough when he can get good.
Touting? Personal offense? I'd be more worried Tony about how you havent any bases for either of those statements. I don't recall anyone having said anything about the Sport being the best. Hell, I never even mentioned the Sport specifically, only 5r rifling. You're speculating.

I don't take anything to heart, trust me. If I based my purchase decisions purely on interwebz opinion, I'd never have a negative experience to become a wise rifle owner, case in point on why I'll not own another Colt. They're the shiz, but I don't tolerate even one mistake by a company that IS touted as the best, and falls short and has rude CS employees to boot.

We can agree to disagree so we don't ruin this thread. Matter of fact, buy your rifles, I'll buy mine, and we will continue doing what we do. No hard feelings.
 
mrmeanmustard, one only has to look at your recent posts to find a healthy handful regarding the S&W rifles and one even claiming you "love the sport romantically". i'd say that qualifies as touting.
 
It just occurred to me that I don't think that anyone has mentioned Spike's Tactical. The last time I checked, they had a basic model for under $900. I've never bought a complete rifle from them, but I've used a lot of their parts and its nice stuff; plus, they have a variety of roll marks that you can choose from.
 
I think on page 2 someone had mentioned Spike and I agree they are pretty good I've used their buffers before and I'm pretty sure I have one in my parts bin waiting to be used in my new gun
 
I guess it all depends what a person is going to do with their gun. Should you get '94 Chevy Cavalier Sport just so you can ride around town and not be able to race or get the 2012 Corvette that you can race and still ride around town? To do everything will cost more. But if you just want to be able to say that you have a vehicle in your garage the sport will do. I am kind of a car guy and that is what I see going on here. Myself, I have a 6920 with an Aimpoint supercharger on it:neener:. Runs good. Cold AC.

kenken
 
windham, bunch of former bushmaster people. good finish, chrome lined barrel, chamber and bcg. really nice single stage trigger. 850$ at he local sporting good store.
 
I looked at some of those today and a company called black dawn who is out of mo most of their parts and manufacturing is in mo and all their parts are from the US they don't have a ton of models but pretty good looking ARs
 
is the S&W customer service really that much better than the others?.. if so, when products as close to each other to warrant a comparison, i'll always go for the company that cares about satisfaction
 
I guess it all depends what a person is going to do with their gun. Should you get '94 Chevy Cavalier Sport just so you can ride around town and not be able to race or get the 2012 Corvette that you can race and still ride around town? To do everything will cost more. But if you just want to be able to say that you have a vehicle in your garage the sport will do. I am kind of a car guy and that is what I see going on here. Myself, I have a 6920 with an Aimpoint supercharger on it:neener:. Runs good. Cold AC.

kenken
Or you have a 96 Chevy S10 with 200,000 miles on it that laughs as it drives by the ragged out Vette broke down form all that racing!

I do wish some of you would realize that S&W has others besides the Sport. Heck, quite a few and in several calibers.

I need to stay way from this thread.:banghead:
 
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is the S&W customer service really that much better than the others?.. if so, when products as close to each other to warrant a comparison, i'll always go for the company that cares about satisfaction
It is better than Colts. I've used both, and consider Smiths to be a selling point.
 
i've found colt's customer service to be rather good. the same goes for ruger, savage, cz, kimber, remington, and there are probably a couple others i'm forgetting.

the only negative experience i've had and it wasn't a huge deal, was with lmt, which is unfortunate, because i was set to buy another rifle from them.
 
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