BG has wife or daughter-now what?

[Blackhawk 6]

Here is my take on the situation.

If the BG was interested in killing my wife/daughter she would be dead. What he is looking for is a way out without getting shot. My loved one is insurance. Shooting her does nothing to further his goal. There is no urgency to shoot.

Time is on my side. The longer this situation goes on, the better it is for me.

The number one priority should be self-preservation. Use of cover is essential. If I am eliminated from the equation, there is no telling what will happen to my loved one.

Pre-arranged codewords may work, but then again they may not. Letting your body go limp when someone is holding a knife to your throat strikes me as a good way to get cut. If that is your plan, I would suggest a coming up with Plan B.

Superior feats of marksmanship aside, static range practice has very little in common with the dynamics of a real-life encounter.

At some point, I may have to end the whole mess. Each of us will have to make the determination for ourselves. When it gets to that point, my loved one's welfare will no longer be a priority, eliminating the threat will be. If my loved one makes it alright, bonus. Either way, dead BG and I'll have to be satisifed with that.

 

[Werewolf]

Hmmmm.....

Lotsa Cowboys here who think they can make the head shot. Some - maybe most - could.

BUT!
What happens if you miss and put a bullet in your wife's brain instead of the bad guy? Then you shoot the bad guy and down he goes.

Shooting the BG is justified - I doubt you'd be prosecuted for sending him to the garbage pile (well - at least not in a reasonable state). But what happens about your wife?

Do you get prosecuted for that? Will you be able to deal with the emotional trauma that will result from killing her?

Armchair Commando scenarios can be fun but you better think out all the aspects not just the tactical ones. You better consider the emotional and legal aspects too.

 

[Powderman]

Ah, excuse me...cowboy?

No flame intended--but fella, you have absolutely NO idea what my background is, what my training is, and what I have done.

Blackhawk 6, rest assured that I know EXACTLY what you are talking about.

No cowboy here. The reason that I mentioned Bullseye shooting is because it stresses one thing above all else--(well, actually, two)--sight picture/alignment and pulling that trigger straight to the rear without disturbing that sight picture.

Never, ever doubt that I would drop that hammer. And, I have seen what happens in people when their loved ones are threatened.

And, as far as shooting my wife? Trust me--if the situation has deteriorated to that point, the only way I would take the shot is if the only alternative is for her to be taken to her fate--whatever that fate would be.

Bottom line is this--put one of the people I love (wife, son, daughter, grandchildren) at the point of a weapon, and the person who does so will NOT leave that encounter alive. Period.

 

[gryphon]

According to Keanu Reeves/Hollywood:


"Shoot the hostage."

 

[hso]

My daughter is small enough that I'd have plenty of "target" to shoot at.

The problem with my wife is explaining to the authorities why there were bullet holes in a guy with a dislocated wrist and elbow with a broken neck.

 

[johnnymenudo]

I don't know for certain how I would handle it, but I think I would be less likey to engage in conversation than some. I wouldn't say a word. I would retreat back a few yards try to find cover in the house and watch him - if he goes to leave I would try to circle around and ambush him. If he stays in the house I might wait until he gets tired or careless and take my shot. Having a conversation with a guy pointing a gun at you is movie material. I would call 911 as well if able - never hurts to have back up.

I am not flaming anyone, but reaction under stress and shooting in competitions are not the same. I know there are some fine marksmen here on the board, some that have had serious training and experience, but ... well I will just leave it at that.

JM

 

[Texian Pistolero]

Instead of talking this over, why doesn't somebody get a friend to play the bad guy, face mask/goggles, paint ball/
airsoft, and train throuh some scenarios with wife?

Obviously, nothing works all the time, you need at least 5 variations, but it should be feasible.

Weak points will emerge, and can be modified/corrected.


I think you can shift between %100 lose to 60% win.

I preaume that this discussion is about to do NOTHING is %100 lose,anyway.

Also, do not presume that bad guy is thimking/acting logically. If he was, he wouldn't be there.

 

[Lupine]

Teach your wife/partner/daughter/son to kick the assailant in the knees and shins, stomp on his feet, and jab the hell out of his ribs with an elbow. Teach him/her tactics for getting out of an embrace (at waist, chest or throat level.)

Of course, if the hostage is a baby or toddler, they can't fight back, but neither are they a good shield for the bad guy due to size.

 

[El Rojo]

Here is someting I never understood. If there is a bad guy holding your wife /daughter and thy possess a handgun, why aren't they shooting your dumb butt as you stand there and tell them, "If you shoot her, I kill you!' Come on! If they are intent on getting away, they are going to be shooting at you as they haul your loved one around. In this situation I would figure you got very little time to do anything. If you surprise them in the hallway, you have about 1 second to shoot him before he shoots you. Your problem is he has a whole body to shoot at and he can miss if he wants. You have a head to shoot at and if you miss, your loved one might die.

This situation would be best if you have a shotgun or a rifle available. Shotgun you say? Yes shotgun. I shot a shotgun fun match once where we had to make head shots with buckshot on 5" of a bad steel's head with the victim blocking the bad steel's body. I was surprised when I did it both times wthout knocking the good steel over. Shotgun patterns are pretty small at close, close range.

Still I can't get over the simple fact if I were holding your loved one hostage, I would shoot you the first chance I got. If I am in your home and have a gun, I obviously don't care too much about the law or your well being. If I can use your daughter as a shield and make you hesitate, then great, you die, I live, your daughter becomes mine.

Now that we know this, maybe the best thing to do is train your family to not be a victim. Everyone in the house should be armed and have a good flashlight. A good dog in the house will probably be a sufficient warning alarm for the family to be alert late at night.

This brings up a good question, what age are you going to arm your daughter or son? How are you going to train them to identify a target and shoot? Don't forget, if I have your loved one as a shield, I a smoking you first chance I get. This isn't the movies. We aren't going to have a discussion and your telling me if I kill your loved one you are going to kill me isn't going to make me feel like talking much. The action is going to be fast and furious. Heck if my shield is small enough, I might shoot them in the arm or leg to keep them in pain so I can manage them better, piss you off, and make you do something stupid like come out so I can shoot you.

 

[Werewolf]

El Rojo - that's the best and most likely outcome described so far.

And as described probably a worst nightmare situation that if it occured would require a huge amount of luck to get out of...

Except of course for our local Cowboys who can shoot a gnat's eye out at 50 yards and never miss even in the heat of battle and with a handgun no less.

 

[Andrew Rothman]

...[T]his--and situations like this--are exactly why I shoot NRA Conventional Pistol competition--also known as Bullseye shooting.
...
In Timed and Rapid fire, you have 20 and 10 seconds, respectively, to fire five rounds at a 25 yard target.

No offense, but I can't imagine training more removed from this tactical situation.

Scenario-based training, such as IDPA, while not ideal, sounds a good deal more applicable.

 

[Jeff White]

El Rojo said;

This situation would be best if you have a shotgun or a rifle available. Shotgun you say? Yes shotgun. I shot a shotgun fun match once where we had to make head shots with buckshot on 5" of a bad steel's head with the victim blocking the bad steel's body. I was surprised when I did it both times wthout knocking the good steel over. Shotgun patterns are pretty small at close, close range.

One word of caution. At close range, the wad is a secondary projectile that few people think about, but it can be dangerous....A chance you could injure or even kill the hostage with the wad.

Jeff

 

[Powderman]

No offense, but I can't imagine training more removed from this tactical situation.

And, what is the object of training if you don't hit what you're aiming for?

IDPA can hone your movement skills, and engagement skills and technique. It is very valuable. So is IPSC and USPSA.

However, the A zone on a silhouette is a really big target--at close range.

So, why is Bullseye training valuable? Certainly not for the tactical factor--because there isn't any! You don't engage someone while standing with one hand in your pocket or tucked in your belt.

Nor will you be carrying a pistol with an Ultra Dot, loaded with your favorite poof loads that barely cycle the pistol.

So, what's the point?

Bullseye shooting--especially the EIC/DCM matches--teach you two things above all else:

Concentrate on your front sight, and pull the trigger the SAME way, straight to the rear until the hammer drops. Every time.

In slow fire, you learn--indeed, you burn into your memory--the proper sight picture and alignment.

In timed fire, you kick up the pace just a notch.

In rapid fire, you learn to overcome recoil, find that front sight, and squeeze that trigger. Fast.

And, when you get to the point that you are shooting good scores in BE, you notice another benefit. When you are shooting a match, you are shooting one handed. You do that a LOT.

Thus, when you shoot two-handed, it's almost like shooting from a Ransom Rest.

Except of course for our local Cowboys who can shoot a gnat's eye out at 50 yards and never miss even in the heat of battle and with a handgun no less.

Werewolf, let's make ourselves plain. Make it VERY clear who you are referring to as a "cowboy", will you?

And, with all due respect, please remember one fact: You still have NO idea what my training level is, and what my experience level is. And again, with all due respect, you have not qualified your comments with any experience of yours to justify you calling me a "cowboy"--if indeed, your remark is directed at me.

I don't like blowing my own horn, and therefore I won't. But I will say this much:

I spent 15 years in the service of this Country. (Army)

I have been to a few out of the way places--Panama, Korea, and Germany among them.

I have also had the privilege of working with a rather diverse group of people. I learned quite a bit from these folks.

I like this board because I can learn a lot from all of the members here. I also like to pass along stuff that I know works.

So, let's use the fire extinguisher, eh? We don't need to flame each other.

 

[johnnymenudo]

I would use my Jedi mind tricks to have him surrender.

Me: You don't want to hurt anyone.

badguy: "I dont want to hurt anyone"

Me: you will put down the gun.

Badguy; "I will put down the gun".

Before anyone questions my ability as a Jedi, let me just say that I trained with Master Yoda, so don't even think about it.

JM

 

[Rosco Benson]

The "leg shoot the hostage" is an extremely bad idea.
Locally, we just had a citizen killed by a leg shot delivered
by an armed robber. He bled out rather quickly.

I recently spoke with an officer who ended a hostage
situation with a single shot (traversing the torso) to
the hostage taker. The officer kept moving, working
the angles for a clear shot, until one presented itself.
He took it and the hostage-taker dropped like a ton
of bricks (a Golden Saber 9mm did the deed). Perhaps
a head shot would have worked better, but the hostage
was saved--unharmed--and the the bad guy was taken
out...though he survived.

So, keep moving, work the angles, get the shot(s). There
aren't any guarantees. The scenario posed is one wherein
a good many options have evaporated.

Rosco

 

[Preacherman]

This is one scenario where the Crimson Trace laser grips, or the Lasermax equivalent for autopistols, are a really, really good idea. You can put the dot on any exposed portion of the BG's body and trigger a shot with an excellent chance of a hit, even if you can't see your sights (or if things happen too quickly to get a sight picture). For this reason, my home defence handguns are all fitted with Crimson Trace lasergrips.

(There is also the potential psychological effect of the BG seeing the red dot on his body, and realising what is about to happen: but I wouldn't bank on this, particularly if he was hopped-up on something illegal.)

 

[Oleg Volk]

Some people don't get stressed till after the fact.

My inclination would be to shoot for the exposed eyes. If those are unavailable, then shoot for any exposed part of the body or even the weapon hand. Anything would be better than letting the perp decide what to do on his own. Then run and fire the rest of the magazine almost at contact to avoid hitting now less stationary hostage.

Hopefully, the hostage has training, too.

 

[Texian Pistolero]

I think it is in error to believe that the PERP is doing ANYTHING logically!

If he were LOGICAL, he wouldn't even BE THERE !

He is acting out some weird COMBO of his chemical dependencies, his pecker, and his need to buy breakfast at the Waffle House tommorrow. Logic has NOTHING to do with it!

It boils down to what you control, and what you DON'T CONTROL.

Hint: maximize what you CONTROL by prior training with your loved ones.

End of soliquoy.

 

[Super Trucker]

Powderman who pissed in your cornflakes? Rinse the bowl out and start over. This is a my daddy can beat up your daddy thing, don't get your panties in a bunch. This is the internet, I can say I have a black belt in forum karate and who cares.
And since we are using hollywood tactics I would suggest using ventriloquism to make the BG look to the side then use your laser grip to shoot him in the ear canal, leaving his face in tact for an open casket.

 

[Powderman]

Uh, yeah. OK. Whatever.

I think I'm kinda done with this thread.

 

[Jeff White]

Ok, let's stop acting like children and get back to civil discussion. If you disagree with what someone said he'd do, please articulate why, and why your plan is better.

Supertrucker said;

Powderman who pissed in your cornflakes? Rinse the bowl out and start over. This is a my daddy can beat up your daddy thing, don't get your panties in a bunch. This is the internet, I can say I have a black belt in forum karate and who cares.
And since we are using hollywood tactics I would suggest using ventriloquism to make the BG look to the side then use your laser grip to shoot him in the ear canal, leaving his face in tact for an open casket.

No this isn't a my daddy can beat up your daddy thing and this isn't your daddy's internet. We have rules here in S&T. I'm using Supertrucker's post to remind everyone that this is The High Road and members are expected to obey the rules.

This is the Strategies and Tactics Forum. We don't get into My daddy can beat up your daddy contests here. Take it to Roundtable if you want to have that kind of discussion.

Jeff

 

[Oleg Volk]

Better yet, take that type of discussion elsewhere. The Roundtable still has rules of civil conduct.

 

[Super Trucker]

sorry if my last post was out of line it just seemed as though some people were taking others comments way to seriously, and I thought a little sarcasm would lighten the mood a little, but I guess I will just mind my own business in the future. Feel free to remove or edit it.

 

[johnnymenudo]

sorry if my last post was out of line it just seemed as though some people were taking others comments way to seriously, and I thought a little sarcasm would lighten the mood a little, but I guess I will just mind my own business in the future. Feel free to remove or edit it.

Listen here Super Trucker. Your sarcasm is not appreciated nor does it lighten the mood. Let me set you straight. You have no idea of my training or who I am. I have been sarcastic and have lightened the mood with the best. Let's just say I have been around the sarcasm block a time or two, and have even spent some time training in jesting, teasing, being silly, and goofing off a bit. NO sir - your sarcasm falls short by quite a bit. You have a lot to learn about lightening the mood.

I am going to watch Monty Python now and hone my skills.

JM

 

[Jeff White]

I think this one is done......
Jeff