Biden to announce executive order on gun sale background checks

[CapnMac]

"We" ought remember this is the same WH that could not even trot out a Ministry of Truth without screwing it up.
That they have been as accurate as a handless clock on a consistent basis (so not even right once, let alone twice, a day).

This WH cannot even get the laws passed that they want/wanted, even with full control of Congress.

So, this is hot air. It's smoke and mirrors--the question is what are we not looking at while all this is going on?

 

[daniel craig]

Universal background checks are wonderful in concept but not what you think.

I certainly don't deny that they aren't as effective as they could be, and I think they should be changed.

 

[daniel craig]

Back in the 80's when they first came up with the background check system I supported the concept because I didn't want to sell a gun to a prohibited person.

I now realize the multitude of reasons that the system is a failure. From GIGO information to things deliberately left out of being reported (Take the POS kid in Parkland that shot up Marjorie Stoneman Douglas High School who had been interviewed by the local LEO's and the FBI both, was thrown out of his prior school for bringing bullets to school and yet was still able to pass a background check).

The background check system, like it or not, is doomed to fail unless the errors in the system are corrected and it gets administered right. And that's assuming the government agency doing the checking is fair and honest.

Oh absolutely, there are a ton of holes in the current system that need fixing asap, no doubt about that, but it's at least a start/something.

 

[daniel craig]

The majority of the guns I have bought, I have bought new thru a dealer. So, since background checks have been required, I have submitted my info, paid my monies and went home with a gun. So, if UBCs are implemented, the effect on me personally would be moot. I also have needed a background check for my job, to coach youth sports, to ref youth sports and to help with Hunter Safety for youths. So for me, it's not a big deal. Snopes claims it "true" that over 90% of Americans support UBCs. I know many here will argue it. Most folks don't have an issue with the UBC itself, it's the idea that is going to be used to trace a gun directly to them by the "man", that is the fear.

I'm in the same boat. I've had so many background checks for so many things, and I much prefer the person buying/selling me/my gun is at least as far as the current system can tell, up and up. And IF they aren't, as long as they passed a background check that's not on me/my fault.

I can understand why some people would be against them and the historical precedence behind why but more and more I am seeing that as a side effect that's worth the risk. They aren't perfect and we definitely need to plug the holes in the BGC system so people don't slip through but I also think if they ever did lead to confiscation they way most people afraid of that seems to imagine it (government forces kicking in your door and confiscating them) there would be enough opposition by owners that it would be impossible. Don't get me wrong, I think guns should be confiscated under certain conditions but I just don't think the mass scale that people worry about is even possible.

 

[SSN Vet]

I just don’t have a lot of faith that they would be done right.

By weaponizing Federal agencies to attack their political rivals (like having the FBI arresting people for praying outside a clinic, or having the IRS audit an opposition group or deny 501C status to any group with the word "liberty" in their title) the Democrats have lost all credibility, faith, and trust.

They will use such new "interpretations" to go after anyone who doesn't get into their perverted, woke, socialist line.

 

[dogtown tom]

The part about 3d printing is most interesting. Think all it would be useful for is another charge to tack on when someone gets caught making and selling 3d printed guns. Seems like they using a mirror to grasp at smoke.

The Undetectable Firearms Act wouldn't affect 3D printed guns anymore than it does Glocks.....and Glocks were the original target of this law.
See 922 P https://uscode.house.gov/view.xhtml?req=(title:18 section:922 edition:prelim)

(p)(1) It shall be unlawful for any person to manufacture, import, sell, ship, deliver, possess, transfer, or receive any firearm-

(A) that, after removal of grips, stocks, and magazines, is not as detectable as the Security Exemplar, by walk-through metal detectors calibrated and operated to detect the Security Exemplar; or

(B) any major component of which, when subjected to inspection by the types of x-ray machines commonly used at airports, does not generate an image that accurately depicts the shape of the component. Barium sulfate or other compounds may be used in the fabrication of the component.


(2) For purposes of this subsection-

(A) the term "firearm" does not include the frame or receiver of any such weapon;

(B) the term "major component" means, with respect to a firearm, the barrel, the slide or cylinder, or the frame or receiver of the firearm; and

(C) the term "Security Exemplar" means an object, to be fabricated at the direction of the Attorney General, that is-

(i) constructed of, during the 12-month period beginning on the date of the enactment of this subsection, 3.7 ounces of material type 17–4 PH stainless steel in a shape resembling a handgun; and

(ii) suitable for testing and calibrating metal detectors:


Provided, however, That at the close of such 12-month period, and at appropriate times thereafter the Attorney General shall promulgate regulations to permit the manufacture, importation, sale, shipment, delivery, possession, transfer, or receipt of firearms previously prohibited under this subparagraph that are as detectable as a "Security Exemplar" which contains 3.7 ounces of material type 17–4 PH stainless steel, in a shape resembling a handgun, or such lesser amount as is detectable in view of advances in state-of-the-art developments in weapons detection technology.


(3) Under such rules and regulations as the Attorney General shall prescribe, this subsection shall not apply to the manufacture, possession, transfer, receipt, shipment, or delivery of a firearm by a licensed manufacturer or any person acting pursuant to a contract with a licensed manufacturer, for the purpose of examining and testing such firearm to determine whether paragraph (1) applies to such firearm. The Attorney General shall ensure that rules and regulations adopted pursuant to this paragraph do not impair the manufacture of prototype firearms or the development of new technology.

(4) The Attorney General shall permit the conditional importation of a firearm by a licensed importer or licensed manufacturer, for examination and testing to determine whether or not the unconditional importation of such firearm would violate this subsection.

(5) This subsection shall not apply to any firearm which-

(A) has been certified by the Secretary of Defense or the Director of Central Intelligence, after consultation with the Attorney General and the Administrator of the Federal Aviation Administration, as necessary for military or intelligence applications; and

(B) is manufactured for and sold exclusively to military or intelligence agencies of the United States.


(6) This subsection shall not apply with respect to any firearm manufactured in, imported into, or possessed in the United States before the date of the enactment of the Undetectable Firearms Act of 1988.

I can't see how any of it will make people safer or reduce crime.

I think the most obvious example is airport metal detectors.

 

[Hartkopf]

By weaponizing Federal agencies to attack their political rivals (like having the FBI arresting people for praying outside a clinic, or having the IRS audit an opposition group or deny 501C status to any group with the word "liberty" in their title) the Democrats have lost all credibility, faith, and trust.

They will use such new "interpretations" to go after anyone who doesn't get into their perverted, woke, socialist line.

81 million ballots have total faith in our leadership.

 

[Megawatt maker]

I'm in the same boat. I've had so many background checks for so many things, and I much prefer the person buying/selling me/my gun is at least as far as the current system can tell, up and up. And IF they aren't, as long as they passed a background check that's not on me/my fault.

I can understand why some people would be against them and the historical precedence behind why but more and more I am seeing that as a side effect that's worth the risk. They aren't perfect and we definitely need to plug the holes in the BGC system so people don't slip through but I also think if they ever did lead to confiscation they way most people afraid of that seems to imagine it (government forces kicking in your door and confiscating them) there would be enough opposition by owners that it would be impossible. Don't get me wrong, I think guns should be confiscated under certain conditions but I just don't think the mass scale that people worry about is even possible.

History proves you WRONG.

One thing government does very well, all governments, all though history..is kill people.

We don't need, or want UBCs. They are simply a violation of the Constitution of the United States.

I don't give a cow paddy about "protecting" the public, "saving" the children, or the "greater good"....those who claim these are the motive of the cause are ALWAYS the ones who become the biggest killers of them all.

If a criminal get his hands on a gun...that's just the price we have to pay.

I REFUSE to grant the tools that would be needed to disarm you, me, and everyone. I won't help the killers.

Universal background checks can't, don't, won't, and will not, save a single life. They will, however, lead to the eventually attempt to disarm you.

 

[CapnMac]

there are a ton of holes in the current system that need fixing asap,

And, just how would we do that?
There's no way to Audit NICS--it was never designed to be audited.
And, depending upon the source, the NICS list is somewhere between 55% and 75% "complete."
The number of incomplete NICS records beggars imagination (Listings missing middle names, misspellings, incorrect & incomplete addresses, and so on).
That's on top of the rather bald fact that no where nearly all the Prohibited Persons out there have had their information entered into NICS. (There are a number of States that, still, forty (40) years' later still have not submitted any Mental Health Records to NICS.

It's been forty years, there no way to know how many of the people on the NICS list are deceased.

How many people with a Delay got that because their name was similar to someone on the list who is deceased? Or had their name misspelt? Or moved into the same house?

NICS is not a Background Check. A Background check takes from two to six weeks, and typically needs a couple of field investigators. A given person at a desk can process perhaps 6 BI per day. How many investigators would it take to BI the millions of gun buyers in a given Month? Easily millions (particularly for needing field agents, too). The Agency needed for this task would dwarf the FBI. And, given that criminality in the US hovers around 11% at max (just past 4% for crimes that result in Prohibited status), that agency would expend 90% of its effort investigating innocent & law-abiding people.

NICS is a system that takes [name] & [location information] and compares it to a list input on paper punchcards decades ago. It then returns "not on the list"; "on the list"; or "maybe on the list" (does "Deauxes, Jon" equal "Deaux, Jean" equal "Dough, Jan"?).

NICS was a compromise. It was executed with 70s technology on 60s computer systems because that's what they had. The Feebs (actually the contractors in the call center) are only able to process 96-97% of the requests as is of a list that's maybe 2/3 complete and perhaps 80% accurate.

UBC is a pipedream.

 

[old lady new shooter]

Most likely, this could be done by inserting clauses in military acquisition contracts that would prevent the companies from selling the same or similar products to the civilian market. But if a company's civilian sales outweigh its military sales, it could walk away from the military contract. Or, it could organize a subsidiary corporation to handle the civilian sales. Lots of ways clever lawyers could get around this.

Subsidiary corp wouldn't work, it's still part of the parent. "constructive ownership"

 

[old lady new shooter]

Yes, I realized this after I posted. I actually have a very nice Colt Stainless Government model that was brought back to the LGS because the buyer discovered she couldn't buy a gun for her prohibited boyfriend. It was LNIB having been shot only once.



Yep. While I haven't created a yard sale expressly for selling guns, I have sold a gun at a yard sale. Didn't start out to sell it, just had some ammo on a table. Gentleman came up and we started to discuss guns and he asked if I had anything I would like to sell. I had a Winchester auto 12 ga. that never fit me and it left my possession that day. If we truly do believe in the 2nd, why wouldn't selling guns at a yard sale be just fine? Would that be any more dangerous that any other FTF sale? Would guns at a table in your yard be any different than in your open trunk in the parking lot of a gun show? That's where I see most personal firearms being sold at gun shows. I actually don't have an issue if personal guns are sold for dispersal at a table inside. It's just my experience that folks that rent a space are there to make money, not to dispose of their collection.

I would consider it a significant security risk to sell guns at a yard sale.

 

[Ignition Override]

Worrying about it won't do any good.

This doesn't imply that we should be blissfully unaware.

I'm about to buy a first M1A and enjoy it soon, no matter what distractions -which don't surprise anybody - come from the Potato Head in the WH.

 

[Hugger-4641]

Here's another breakdown of what this is attempting

 

[AlexanderA]

This antigun hysteria is so tiresome. It's based, politically, on a false premise -- that there's a strong groundswell of support for banning guns, and that votes can be garnered by pandering to this sentiment. That may be true in some scattered urban / suburban areas, but it definitely isn't true in the vast majority of the country. Quite the opposite -- the working class (once the mainstay of the Democratic party) sees its guns as the last guarantors of its dignity and self-determination (since these things have been assailed from so many other directions). I'm convinced that guns are a big (but unspoken) factor behind the political realignment that has been going on in this country. If the Democrats continue down this road, they're going to wonder why they are losing elections that they expect to win. This is certainly political malpractice, if not political suicide, for them.

 

[benEzra]

Remember, though, that the guns in the Concord armory were publicly owned. (And actually, the issue was the store of powder rather than the guns themselves.) The British were not after individually-owned guns.

The die was already cast by the time the British expedition left Boston for Concord. Of course, "the shot heard around the world" was the meme that persisted in the collective memory.

But the British ultimately *were* after personally owned guns. General Gage had already instituted mass confiscation of personally owned firearms in Boston; Lexington and Concord et al were the first moves toward expanding the Boston gun bans to the population at large, regardless of what the opening moves in that campaign were. And the colonists were well aware of that.

 

[N555]

The Undetectable Firearms Act wouldn't affect 3D printed guns anymore than it does Glocks.....and Glocks were the original target of this law.
See 922 P https://uscode.house.gov/view.xhtml?req=(title:18 section:922 editionrelim)



I think the most obvious example is airport metal detectors.

A typical 3d printed gun still has like a pound of metal parts.
I guess they really think that 3d printed guns are nearly all plastic parts.
Like how the glock7 was "specifically designed to get through a metal detector" lol.

 

[Mark_Mark]

A typical 3d printed gun still has like a pound of metal parts.

they will get there. There is a formal for technology doubling every X amount of time.

but that can’t bet good old machine shop knowledge

 

[dogtown tom]

Like how the glock7 was "specifically designed to get through a metal detector" lol.

You would be surprised how many people believe that to this day.
A former neighbor once asked if they were still illegal.

 

[Carl N. Brown]

Bureau of Justice statistics from National Institute of Justice of US Department of Justice

Source and Use of Firearms Involved in Crimes: Survey of Prison Inmates, 2016
Source and method to obtain firearm by State prisoners who 
carried or used a gun in the crime for which they were imprisoned 

 9.7% Retail Purchase or trade 
 7.2%  - Gun shop/store           
 1.5%  - Pawn shop               
  : %  - Flea market             
 0.8%  - Gun show                 

26.0% Obtained from individual 
 7.9%  - Purchased/traded         
 7.0%  - Rented/borrowed         
11.2%  - Gift to/purchased for       

43.2% Off the street/underground 

 6.6% Theft                   
 1.5%  - From burglary           
  : %  - From retail source       
 1.8%  - From family/friend       
 3.3%  - Unspecified theft 
     
17.1% Other source               
 6.7%  - Found at crime location 
 4.7%  - Brought by someone else 
 5.6%  - Other 
                 
 2.6% Multiple sources

Off the street / underground sources were previously listed separately as
_ fence dealing in stolen / burglarized guns
_ drug dealer
_ smuggler
_ black market.

My 2016 Note: Prisoners were asked to report all sources and methods of obtaining any firearm they possessed during the offense, so detail percentages may not sum, due to use of multiple firearms from different sources by some offenders.
The BJS reported "Flea Market" and "Theft From Retail" as " : " (below 0.5%, below 1 of 200, statistically insignificant).

https://bjs.ojp.gov/content/pub/pdf/suficspi16.pdf

 

[CoalTrain49]

Maybe he's afraid the weapons that were gifted to Ukraine, are going to make there way back to here, through the black market.

Not sure if you're serious but I'll assume you are.

What small arms were gifted to UKR? I'm not talking about shoulder launched rockets. Seriously asking because I've never seen anything to indicate that happened. UKR was awash in AK -74's when the war started. Zelenskyy said they had so many they could arm anyone who wanted to fight. Remember that UKR was a country that was armed by the USSR. That didn't end until about 10 years after the AK-74 was in wide use in all militaries of the USSR.

I've not seen an AR in any of the war footage either.

 

[AlexanderA]

What small arms were gifted to UKR? I'm not talking about shoulder launched rockets. Seriously asking because I've never seen anything to indicate that happened.

Greece sent 25,000 Kalashnikovs to the Ukraine. These were illegal guns that had been confiscated by the Greek authorities, out of an estimated 250,000 that were floating around the country. (They had been smuggled in from Albania after the fall of the Hoxha regime there.)

 

[Megawatt maker]

Not sure if you're serious but I'll assume you are.

What small arms were gifted to UKR? I'm not talking about shoulder launched rockets. Seriously asking because I've never seen anything to indicate that happened. UKR was awash in AK -74's when the war started. Zelenskyy said they had so many they could arm anyone who wanted to fight. Remember that UKR was a country that was armed by the USSR. That didn't end until about 10 years after the AK-74 was in wide use in all militaries of the USSR.

I've not seen an AR in any of the war footage either.

I've seen some M14s being used by the Ukes in the news videos.

 

[Mosin77]

Because, following Biden's directive to require more marginal gun sellers to have FFL's, the ATF would have to make these FFL's available. If they didn't, and these additional FFL's were practically unobtainable (for example, because of local zoning compliance issues), it would create a Catch-22 for which the ATF (and the Administration) would be skewered in the press. The last thing this Administration wants is ridicule and negative publicity.

The path of least resistance for the ATF, therefore, would be to hand out FFL's left and right, and then worry about auditing the new licensees later. Everything in government is done for short-term CYA considerations. There is no thought given to long-term unintended consequences.

Lol. I wish this were the case. But No.

That’s what the press and everyone in the administration wants. They want FFLs to be de facto unobtainable, for selling guns to require an FFL, and for selling guns to therefore be practically speaking, illegal. This is a step in that direction. And the only press who would care is an outlet like Fox or various “alt right” online publications, which the major left wing media have already made out to be simply irrational, crazy, ideological, etc. In other words, Biden’s base and center will think this is great and the only ones who care will be the right, who hate his administration already.

 

[AlexanderA]

That’s what the press and everyone in the administration wants.

"The press" is actually highly fragmented, especially now in the Internet age. And regardless of ideology, reporters and editors love stories that make "the authorities" out to have feet of clay. This is the sort of thing that makes careers. The idea of an impossible "Catch-22" on guns would be perfect grist for this.

 

[CoalTrain49]

Greece sent 25,000 Kalashnikovs to the Ukraine. These were illegal guns that had been confiscated by the Greek authorities, out of an estimated 250,000 that were floating around the country. (They had been smuggled in from Albania after the fall of the Hoxha regime there.)

That makes more sense. I'm sure the Ukrainians had stockpiles of eastern bloc/soviet ammo. Also given the fact there are a lot more AK-74's floating around in the world than M-14's.