Big and heavy or slow and fast

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AJC1

AJC1

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Do you prefer speed or weight to take your game. I'm just now getting into hunting and looking at harvesting an animal. It seems like there are at least two camps of thought with many in the middle. Is a big and heavy bullet better or a light and fast preferred. The only starting assumption would be an ethical distance of 300 yards, as I can shoot but I'm not going far till I get some experience. As an example do you like 338 federal or 22-250. Pick any 308ish case for comparison. The 7-08 or 308 would be examples of the tweeners. Tennessee doesn't have grizzly so omit that option. No polar bears either.
 
I wouldn’t use 22-250 for deer or a .338 . Some states .22 caliber is unlawful for deer , like my state . For deer if you are talking caliber and not bullet weight , my choice for deer is anything from .243 to 30.06 , pick the rifle that you like . I like a heavy bullet in the smaller calibers and middle of the road weight bullet in the larger calibers , but that would also depend how tight they shot .
 
I match my ballistics to my game and expected shot distance, so I use both depending on conditions and how I'm hunting. Even my version of slow and heavy is 300yd capable.. just in case. But, IMHO, to me at least, the platform and how it's setup is almost more important than the cartridge.

For instance, my .350RM in a 20" barrel launches a 225grn at 2730 FPS, it's basically got the trajectory of a 30-06 180 grn. Using the MPBR concept a 239yd zero gives it a MPBR of 280yds on a 280yds for a 6" TGT. With it's 200yd zero it's only 8" of drop at 300 and 23" at 400 (30-06 being 7.9" and 22.8). Even IF I bump up to a 250grn at 2500, it's still a 300yd capably cartridge/combo. When I hunted elk in timber, I just dropped the 250s in, the POA VS POI was moot on a target that size at those distances. Once I developed my 225 NP load, the 250s fell by the wayside.

IF I was putting something together for an elusive "all around" 300yd rifle for whitetail, I'd probably just re-build my .260RM and use 130ABs, or go with a 7-08 (anything 308 based really). IF I knew however that the majority of my time would be spent still hunting, or doing drives in wooded terrain, then yes I'd probably go for a .338Fderal or a .358Win in a compact format with a lower powered scope. I would love to find either in a 760-7600 set up for a "timber rifle". IMHO, both the 338F and .358Win are 300yd cartridges, which would cover clear cuts etc.

For presentations/shots that may not be perfect, I error on the side of slow(er) and heavy(er).
 
RetiredUSNChief said:
Heh...

Methinks your thread title is a bit..."skewed"!

At any rate, I simply I prefer something that works, either way.

There is no magic round that works best for everything at all times.
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What did I miss? I did try and establish reasonable constraints so we're not comparing 458 mag to 218 bee. I also didn't want black powder because I'd not use it even if it was determined best. Ethical hunting seems to be arbitrarily an energy number of 1000lbs, which at 300yds is covered by all so the ethics were not a factor in this choice. The same answer could have been achieved with 120 class vs 180 class in 308 but then that removes anyone who doesn't shoot 308.
 
Here’s what has worked well for my family. Something 24 to 30 caliber , 2500 to 3000 fps, and bullets in the mid range of the selection. This is for deer and hogs. For elk and bear, limited experience, it has always been 27 or 30 caliber.
 
stringnut said:
Here’s what has worked well for my family. Something 24 to 30 caliber , 2500 to 3000 fps, and bullets in the mid range of the selection. This is for deer and hogs. For elk and bear, limited experience, it has always been 27 or 30 caliber.
Click to expand...
Gunblue490 did a video discussing the history of 270 cartridge development and progression. The 130 was a Lazer and effective but messy. They came out with a 150 to slow things down to leave less damage. Then they come along releasing superformance and get the 150 up to the previous 130 speeds. There seems to be a fight raging about speed and shock helping down the animal. I've always had a preference for going heavy for caliber to murder paper, and that might be the wrong frame of mind for proper hunting. Bullet selection seems to also play an important deciding factor whereas different construction bullets are needed for best results at higher speeds.
 
CraigC said:
Methinks we have different definitions of "big & slow".
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I defined it in the op. 22-250 is fast and 338/358 would be comparatively slow. For a number for clarity let's say 2000 fps because that's 45-70 territory and it's definitely big and slow.
 
AJC1 said:
What did I miss? I did try and establish reasonable constraints so we're not comparing 458 mag to 218 bee. I also didn't want black powder because I'd not use it even if it was determined best. Ethical hunting seems to be arbitrarily an energy number of 1000lbs, which at 300yds is covered by all so the ethics were not a factor in this choice. The same answer could have been achieved with 120 class vs 180 class in 308 but then that removes anyone who doesn't shoot 308.
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I don't think you necessarily missed anything.

I believe some people make too much out of this topic.

I'm of the opinion that if you can make a good kill with whatever you have, then that's great.

Some prefer heavy and slow, since light and fast, others something in between.

Whatever float red your boat.
 
I'm so deep into the "heavy" camp, that I took down my tent and built a cabin! No less than 180 in my .308"-.312" rifles, and nothing less than 250 grains in my 350RM...although I have an old box of 300 grain Barnes bullets that are my favorites. My 7.92X57mm is loaded with 220's. I don't shoot over 150 yards with cartridge rifles, so I could go even heavier.
 
I had buddies who argued for 30 years over it.

Speed kills

Nope energy.

One used a 220 swift or 7mm stw. The other 338 and bigger....niether one ever had the first bit of trouble killing anything.

I've used 223 up to 338 lapua/450 Marlin. Dead is dead. If you place the shot its dead. If you miss its not.

I usually use a mid weight load for guns. If the barrel starts to get burned out, ill change it to salvage some barrel life before re-barreling
 
On "slow", a heavier bullet will always go "slower", but that "slower" can still be plenty fast. Sweet spot in there somewhere. As mentioned, the .350RM has about the same trajectory as the .30U.S. With my 300 grain Barnes round noses, probably not, but again as I have open sights on 99% of my rifles, I'm not going to be shooting over 150 yards anyway. Maybe 200 under super-ultra ideal conditions.
 
Terry G said:
After using a .270, 7MM Magnum, .30/30, all in heavier bullet's I settled on a .30/06 with 180 grain rounds for Whitetail. My Son uses the same round in his Browning X bolt. This is his fourth Buck taken with one shot and we've yet to track one. Al expired within 35 yards of the shot.View attachment 1120346
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That's quite the suit! Saw you coming before I even opened this thread! :) Yep, a 180 in the '06 will do the trick for sure.
 
Breaking body parts kills stuff and that can be done with either fast and light or slow and heavy. It's about the bullet chosen. But in my experience heavy and slow gives a better blood trail, faster tends to put game on the ground faster with no need for a blood trail. They both die.

There is nothing in the lower 48 that I'd not hunt with any of the 6.5's, a 7-08 or a 308. And at ranges farther than 300 yards too. You could pick from any of at least a dozen others, but I like those 3 because they are readily available. For the bigger bear, that is another topic, but those 3 can, and have killed every game animal on the planet including elephant.

The 6.5's are as small as I'd want to go for bear/elk/moose, but if we are talking about game no larger than deer then the 24 and 25 calibers may be perfect and the centerfire 22's borderline acceptable.

I see no reason to go bigger than 30 caliber. The difference between a 30 caliber and a 35 caliber bullet is less than the thickness of a dime. A 33 caliber bullet is about 1/2 the thickness of a dime bigger than 30 caliber. And a 30 caliber bullet of the same weight, or even close, will penetrate farther, shoot flatter, and recoil less.

IMG_1839.JPG
 
When I started out I got a lot of use out of the .30-'06 and rarely had any trouble. I did find the cup-and-core 150 grain bullets I used were sometimes marginal, so started bumping up the weight. By the time I got to the 180 gainers, all was well, but I did end up experimenting with 220s. These hit game shockingly hard - and contrary to popular belief, only drop two or three inches more at 300 yards (with a hundred yard zero) than do the lighter spitzers - and I was hooked.

Had my home state not outlawed lead for hunting I would probably have never looked back. My early experience with things like the X bullet wasn't great. The usual sizes and speeds didn't give the usual results. After I ran out of heavier bullets to try, I threw up my hands and bought some lighter ones. At higher speeds, they started to really work. I pursued that path all the way to the .257 Weatherby, and discovered that a hundred grain TTSX at 3500 fps killed (and kicked) a lot like the best of my '06 loads, and with a trajectory that allowed me to essentially ignore elevation out to 300 yards.

Which is a long way of saying that all sorts of things can be made to work.

For my money, a standard bullet of typical construction and average weight will do fine out of anything in the .27-to-.30 caliber range on any deer in the country, out to 300 yards at least.
 
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More important is a properly constructed bullet, at the velocity it was designed to operate best.

A varmit bullet on deer is no Bueno. It MIGHT work, but it might not.

I don't use anything over 150 gr, in .30-06, on deer; 180 gr on elk. 7mm is 140 gr. .260 is 130 gr. .25 is 120 gr and 6mm is 110 gr.
Totally unconventional, but 120 gr bullets in .30-06 and .30-30, loaded to 2600 fps have given outstanding results.

To the OP, it depends, it depends on the cartridge and the game.
 
I typically prefer a heavy for cartridge (implies slower speed for caliber), controlled-expansion bullet because I value penetration. A by-product of this is reduced shock and not as much meat loss. I also like this
 
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