Big Bore Lever Gun recommendations

[MMCSRET]

Please read up on the 444 before you decide. Read Ken Waters works on the caliber and cartridge, and keep in mind that it was designed to perform best out of a 24" barrel. It is a very good cartridge and at its best with 265/275 gr. bullets. But, do your research before deciding and keep in mind that handloading is best way to optimize the performance of most any cartridge/rifle combination. Good shooting!!!!!!!!!!

 

[stiletto raggio]

I, too wanted a .444 for a long time. When I got out on the net and did research, read about the history and versatility of the .45/70, and finally was given access to a relaoding press with .45/70 components aplenty, I went with the old slugger.

To me, the comparison between .45/70 and .444 is similar to the comparison between .45 Colt and .44 Magnum. While the .444 and .44 are far more powerful in their "factory standard" configurations, in modern guns, both the .45 Colt and .45/70 can far outperform their more odern counterparts. The question comes down to whether you relaod and whether you will be careful in only using hot loads in guns that can handle them. If the answer is yes to both, the .45/70 and .45 Colt far outperform their counterparts, and they do so with a great history behind them.

I own four .45/70s: Two original Trapdoors that I will likely never fire, one Trapdoor reproduction with target sights that I love to shoot off the bench, and a Guide Gun with XS scope mount, a Weaver 2.5-8x pistols cope, Marble peep sight and a Decelerator recoil pad (highly recommended). The Guide Gun is, IMHO, the most versatile lever gun out there, so it is hard to justify buying another modern .45/70. I think a Marlin Cowboy is definitely on the list, though.

 

[rcmodel]

.444 MARLIN, a cartridge which is an extra extra long .44 magnum, and conjures up images of cowboys, Indians, horses, beautiful old rifles etc., vs. .45-70 GOVERNMENT,

I'm having problems understanding the logic of that?

The .444 Marlin wasn't invented until 1964, nearly 100 years after the indian wars.

The 45-70 was the one that was there with Custer at the Little Bighorn in 1876!

rcmodel

 

[Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow]

Well, rcmodel, you make a good point, and I guess I'm "wrong" for conjuring up those images, because it's not historically correct - you are right - the .45-70 has much more history. But nevertheless, I guess just the NAME "Marlin" is what does that for me, and the marketing associated with Marlin over the years. Dunno - what can I say - I'm a sucker for marketing.

 

[rcmodel]

Well, I gotta admit, Custer might have faired better if his troops had been armed with .444 Marlins!

Or 45-70 Marlins and modern smokeless ammo.

Heck, even .44 Mag Marlins!

rcmodel

 

[MCMXI]

Your question is kinda tough to answer ... If the VV manual is not clear, check another manual such as Hornady, Speer, or Lee.

HM2PAC, thanks ... I did just that.

My Sierra 50th Anniversary Rifle Reloading Manual groups loads for three "types" of .45-70.

1. Loads for the Model 1873 Springfield, Remington rolling block, and other black powder rifles, replicas, and modern reproductions.

2. Loads for the Model 1886 Winchester, Sharps-Borchardt, Remington and Navy Arms Rolling Block designs.

3. Loads for the Model 1895 Marlin and Ruger No.1 and No.3 rifles, Siamese Mauser bolt action. (They used a Marlin 1895 with a 22" barrel to generate this load data).

This is a type 3 load:

VV N120
300 grain bullet
46.5, 47.5, 48.5 and 49.5 grains
Max. velocity 2100 fps
No pressures given


My Modern Reloading Second Edition by Richard Lee also lists three "types" of load.

1. For ALL guns in good condition (max loads appear to be around 18,000 CUP and 18,000 psi).

2. Loads NOT to be used in trapdoor or rolling block arms (max loads appear to be around 27,600 CUP and 28,000 psi).

3. Loads ONLY for modern bolt action or Ruger single shot arms (max loads are 50,000 psi).

These loads are type 3 loads:

VV N120
300 grain bullet
44.9 to 45.0 grains
Max. velocity 2029 fps

400 grain bullet
35.7 to 35.8 grains
Max. velocity 1604 fps

VV N130
300 grain bullet
52.0 to 52.1 grains
Max. velocity 2090 fps

No pressures are given for VV loads in the Lee manual.



My Speer Reloading Manual Number 11 list two "types" of loads.

1. Lever action rifles such as the Marlin 1895 and Winchester 1886 with no loads exceeding 28,000 CUP.

2. Browning and Ruger single shot rifles, M-98 Mauser bolt actions and NO OTHERS!! These loads do not exceed 35,000 CUP.

No loads using VV powder are listed.


From VihtaVuori's reloading manual (in pdf format).

N 130
300 grain bullet
47.8 to 52.0 grains
Max. velocity of 1975 fps

350 grain bullet
48.0 to 53.4 grains
Max. velocity of 2014 fps

400 grain bullet
44.7 to 49.7 grains
Max. velocity of 1834 fps

510 grain bullet (CAS load)
30.9 to 35.5 grains
Max. velocity of 1624 fps

N 120
510 grain bullet (CAS load)
26.2 to 29.3 grains
Max. velocity of 1339 fps

So according to the Sierra manual, the Marlin 1895 is grouped with the Ruger No.1 and No. 3 and Mauser bolt action, but according to the Lee and Speer manuals (and possibly the VV manual), the Marlin isn't safe to shoot at those loads. The Sierra manual and the Lee manual both list loads for N 120 and a 300 grain bullet.

Sierra
VV N120
300 grain bullet
46.5, 47.5, 48.5 and 49.5 grains
Max velocity 2100 fps
No pressures given

Lee
VV N120
300 grain bullet
44.9 to 45.0 grains
2029 fps
No pressures given

That's 5 grains difference!! Now I'm REALLY confused!!

 

[JNewell]

nostalgia

Not sure how much nostalgic value the .444 has, unless you limit yourself to the post-WW2 era???

the .444 Marlin can be loaded with RIFLE or HANDGUN bullets,

That's a two-edged sword. A lot of the reason it's hard to make the .444 live up to its potential maximum is that there are too few good rifle bullets out there.

 

[moooose102]

well, i did a lot of research before buying my Marlin. i also thought about the 444. and it was a tough decision. i especially like the curved handle rather than the straight (at least for looks). but bottom line is this. most of the magazines i read were pretty much saying the same thing. that is that with the limited selection of ammo available for the 444, unless you handload, you would be much better off with the 45/70. that being said, i did buy a 45/70 guide gun. the short barreled one. i debated a long time between the cowboy version and the guide gun. in any case, i found a guide gun on sale at a price i just couldnt pass up, so i bought it. i still, in the back of my mind 1/2 wish i had bought the cowboy model. that LONG barrel, the extra magazine capacity, and longet sight radius will all help long range open sight shooting. now, for me, i have a 300 win mag to do that, and with a much flatter trajectory. in reality, i bought the right gun. i wanted it for upper michigan, and most likely the shot will not have to go more that 100-150 yards at the most. but, for you, on a horse, that long barrel, longer sight radius, and extra magazine capacity might look pretty good.

 

[JustsayMo]

My 2001 Marlin catalog shows an "outfitter" model which looks just like a guide gun with the PG and chambered in 444 Marlin.

I have had five variations of the 1895, all in 45-70. I have a picture posted of four of them at http://www.grovestreet.com/PicPage.do?id=1269733 . If you hunt in the woods the Guide Gun is the way to go. I really like my Cowboy but the one time I hunted with it the extra 7-1/2" is very noticeable when moving through the forest.

I recently discovered that Marlin made a limited run of Guide Gun length Octagon barreled 1895's call the LTD III. It is a perfect blend of the two combining the great looks of the Cowboy and the handiness of Guide Gun. It cost me a ransom but I'm looking forward to hunting with it. It does lack a recoil pad and makes itself known when firing it off the bench. Picture at http://www.grovestreet.com/PicPage.do?id=1269347

444 Marlin is an excellent cartridge and friends that use it rave about its on-game performance and accuracy. That being said there is something cool about hunting, reloading and shooting a cartridge from my great great grandfather's era. Even at mid-levergun load levels the 45-70's performance on game is nothing short of devastating. All have been very accurate shooters. 50 yard target at http://www.grovestreet.com/PicPage.do?id=1239550

 

[MCMXI]

JustsayMo, I just about fell off my chair when I saw your four 1895 rifles ... what a FANTASTIC collection and a great photo!! That LTD III is a wonderful looking carbine ... kind of looks like my 1894 CB Ltd on steroids!! Have you ever heard of or seen a Guide Gun with a laminated stock?

Thanks.

 

[Chester32141]

If y'all had the choice to match a revolver w/ a lever gun in 44 mag or 38 spl which would y'all choose ...

Thanks

Chester

 

[HM2PAC]

1858, I'll bounce your loads off of the Hornady manual just to make a bit more confusion.

For the mid-range (1895)

VV120
300 gn HP
32.2gn @1600fps.....43.8gn @ 2000fps

Ruger #1

VV130
350gn RN
[email protected]@2200fps



Go figure, no one has a consensus.

This might make a good thread to start over in the reloading section, I'll try to start it up tonight if no one else gets around to it.

 

[Rmac58]

Well, I see there are zero recommendations for a .357 lever action rifle.
sniff, sniff
but, I'll be pricing a Henry anywho, as I have hundreds of rounds I purchased for my S&W revolver, and would like a lever rifle.
p.s. I don't reload.

 

[JustsayMo]

1858 wrote: "Have you ever heard of or seen a Guide Gun with a laminated stock?"

Yes, I believe it was a limited run through Davidsons. I believe they had the fire sights.

The XLR models also have the laminated stocks and Pistol Grip.

I have the 1894 CB limited too. It is my "Big Bore Lite" rifle. My hunting load is a 325 grain cast bullet pushed by 4227 to 1300 fps. Not punishing and very handy in the woods. I'd even use on critters as big as Elk provided it was an easy high percentage shot.

Chester32141: I've had both and liked them both. If you reload I'd give a slight edge to the 44 magnum. If $ is tight and you buy ammo, get the 357.

RMAC58: Nothing wrong with a 357 levergun, handy, fun, economical and practical but pistol caliber carbines are a different niche than rifle caliber Big Bores.

 

[Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow]

If y'all had the choice to match a revolver w/ a lever gun in 44 mag or 38 spl which would y'all choose ...

Neither one.

The .45 Colt and .357 mag, on the other hand, yes, and I have done such a match in the case of .45 Colt.

 

[KMD]

I only have one lever action, a Puma M92 454 casull Stainless 16inch barrel.
This is my fishing/bush gun.

 

[JNewell]

I recently discovered that Marlin made a limited run of Guide Gun length Octagon barreled 1895's call the LTD III. It is a perfect blend of the two combining the great looks of the Cowboy and the handiness of Guide Gun. It cost me a ransom but I'm looking forward to hunting with it. It does lack a recoil pad and makes itself known when firing it off the bench. Picture at http://www.grovestreet.com/PicPage.do?id=1269347

Now that is neat! Great find - I'll be you're very happy. I wonder if the stiffer barrel will make it even more accurate than the regular GGs? Definitely an outstanding rifle.

 

[JustsayMo]

JNewell: I only have around 100 rounds through the LTD III. I haven't found "the" load yet but it does seem to prefer heavier bullets.

The most accurate of my 1895's is the plain ol' 22" with the pistol grip. It was my first 45-70 and got me addicted. The Stainless Guide Gun shoots nearly as well, isn't finicky at all and has been my go to hunting rifle.

Since I'm shooting these with irons an only using a front rest there is a lot of human error. The difference at 50 yards is only 3/4" and I am not the most consistent riflemen on the planet. I will say that these 1895's as a rule capable of excellent accuracy. Touching one off, hearing it hissing down range and smacking a Ram silhouette at 200 meters is WAY fun.

Big Bores max out the grin factor.

 

[TheGrimReaper]

Marlin 444, 35Rem, 45-70 or a .450 Marlin.