Big picture: recent mass shooters

[NC-Mike]

A lot of folks are concerned about how CCW is being credited or not credited for ending the recent mass shootings but lets look at what happened in each instance.

Nebraska Mall Shootings: No CCW holders available to help because of mall policy. Shooter continues killing till police close in, then Robert Hawkins kills himself.

Utah Mall Shootings: Kenneth K. Hammond, an off duty cop takes out the shooter because he ignored mall policy about carrying his weapon on the property.

Colorado church shooting: Jeanne Assam, a member of the security ministry at the New Life church engages and shoots Matthew Murray, 24 who was armed with a rifle and more than 1,000 rounds of ammo. She saved countless lives and was able to respond immediately because she was armed and at the scene.


So what happened? Credit the police for the Nebraska shooter killing himself? And definitely credit armed citizens who were present at the time of the other two attacks with stopping the other two shooters. The conclusion is stark and clear. Armed citizens is the best defense. There is no way for anti-gunners to spin these events. The actions of each event speak volumes.

 

[DDude]

"But if no guns existed then none of this would have happened in the first place."

That'll always be the final argument of the Anti-2A folks. For them a gunless society is a safer society regardless of the fact that government and criminals are both out to take advantage of regular ol' citizens.

 

[Winchester 73]

And without guns ,we'd still be British.
But try to tell that to your hapless, neighborhood anti-gunner.
There is no hope for these spineless,craven individuals.

 

[charon]

So what happened? Credit the police for the Nebraska shooter killing himself? And definitely credit armed citizens who were present at the time of the other two attacks with stopping the other two shooters. The conclusion is stark and clear. Armed citizens is the best defense. There is no way for anti-gunners to spin these events. The actions of each event speak volumes.

They don't have to spin it, they (through the media) just have to ignore it. Like they have ignored the other school shootings etc. stopped by a citizen with a gun. If they have to with the recent event, they'll simply promote the security guard and former LEO angle, while waiting for the event to fade. Fortunately, through internet forums and online article reply posts we can get the word out past the gate keepers -- somewhat.

 

[Standing Wolf]

There is no way for anti-gunners to spin these events.

Oh, yeah? The leftist extremists have so-called "spun" the statement, "...the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed" to mean the people have no right to keep and bear arms.

In plain English: they're shameless inveterate liars, and they're already lying about people saving lives with concealed firearms, too.

 

[Henry Bowman]

"But if no guns existed then none of this would have happened in the first place."

And then the small and the weak would be at the mercy of the big and strong -- or groups of them -- and the same sort of things would still happen.

 

[speedracer81]

its interesting to me that when the media speaks of the armed and trained civilian, they speak of the "weapon" that she bared. they all purposly leave the term gun to make sure this term is kept far away from any positive action.

 

[Timthinker]

I thought this thread might discuss what characteristics the murderers shared. Although this might not be relevant for discussion, I really wonder what motivates some people to kill. Perhaps the old-fashioned word sin still explains it best.


Timthinker

 

[NC-Mike]

Oh, yeah? The leftist extremists have so-called "spun" the statement, "...the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed" to mean the people have no right to keep and bear arms.

In plain English: they're shameless inveterate liars, and they're already lying about people saving lives with concealed firearms, too.

Should have said, "no way to effectively spin this..." Thinking people, and I still believe that is strong majority in America, despite the late hour of our transformation into a third-world nation, will not buy their spin.

The _only_ hope I see is Ron Paul but it but a distant spot on the horizon.

 

[speedracer81]

original sin is the only explanation I can think of for a highly concerted attack on innocent people

 

[NC-Mike]

I thought this thread might discuss what characteristics the murderers shared. Although this might not be relevant for discussion, I really wonder what motivates some people to kill. Perhaps the old-fashioned word sin still explains it best.


Timthinker

Evil and madness is alive and well.

 

[NC-Mike]

Evil and madness is alive and well.

To further expound on this. The so-called intellectuals among us attempt to deny this or explain it away as the fault of someone else. Intellectuals, (liberals) tend toward their Utopian views. They fail to recognize the nature of man and how we are but 200 years for the age of enlightenment. Humans have a great capacity for evil. Now is no time to render citizens helpless to thwart evil solely for the viewpoint of unrealistic, detached liberals who dream of a perfect world where no one is at fault for anything.

 

[JT1JTI]

NC-Mike,

While I am frustrated at my soon-to-be home state's (CA) stance on CCW, I'm not sure I would rush to draw the same "stark and clear conclusions" based on the recent Nebraska Mall and Church shootings.

With the former, we can't conclude with any certainty that there weren't CCW holders in the Mall in contravention of the no-gun policy, who upon seeing a rifle-carrying creep in an elevated position, chose to withdraw rather than engage. We also can't conclude what the outcome would have been if various people had drawn weapons and started firing at who they presumed to be the Bad Guy.

With the latter, I think we need to account for the fact that Assam was part of an organized (however informal) security detail that was on a heightened state of alert due to earlier shootings. Her resulting positioning and awareness (and home court advantage) must have been huge factors in the good outcome (as well as her skill, nerve and righteous shooting). Based on the news accounts I have read, I'm not 100% sure whether the outcome would have been different if the security detail was open carrying while in plain clothes. Yes, that might have made her (and others a target), but that's assuming the gunman had the wherewithal to focus, observe and adapt. Not sure he did.

My point here is I believe the examples that will best advance CCW have to be the ones that are more clear cut. e.g., one or more Bad Guy(s) confronting a CCW holder who is just going about his/her business, with the Bad Guy(s) suddenly realizing too late that they have bit off more than they can chew.

That said, what is certainly stark and clear is that there are times when you need a firearm unexpectedly and immediately.

Respectfully,

JT

 

[BridgeWalker]

Sin and evil are two good words here.

I was afraid this was gonna be another thread about mental illness and who shouldn't have guns.

Glad to find I'm not the only alone in my thoughts on the issue.

As for antis against CCW--I agree there will be no discourse with the radical left. When it comes down to it, they believe that government *should* have complete control over people and that no one should have the ability to stand up to government lest they get hurt in the process of resistance.

 

[security6]

"But if no guns existed then none of this would have happened in the first place."

Turn it right back to the anti-gunner by asking them a question.

In our country we have tried a few different bans. We banned alcohol during prohibition, and today many drugs such as cocaine and marijuana are banned. However, alcohol was widely available during prohibition and illegal drugs can be found on the streets of EVERY American city today. Why would a ban on guns be any different?

This is usually a very persuasive argument.

 

[NC-Mike]

JT,

What is stark and clear is, evil abounds, as it always has. Private citizens who contrary to popular notion carried a firearm in a church and a mall where it was expressly prohibited stopped the shooters. The law and police did NOTHING in each of the three incidents to _prevent_ the killings and the police can only be credited for stopping the Colorado shooting because the shooter decided to kill himself. Here are three incidents that show us what good can happen when people take personal responsibility for their own safety.

For me, the facts jump out at you and confirm what most of us here believe; disarming law-abiding Americans amounts to state-sanctioned murder.

As far as CCW holders thwarting criminals. That happens fairly often.

 

[slow944]

What did Cain use to kill Able?? A ROCK. Why? Because he was jealous of his brother whose offering was pleasing before GOD. If we didn't have guns , people would use knives or swords or spears as they did before guns came along. Let's face it we are a violent peoples, not just America, look at whats happening in Africa and what happened in Kosovo. All a hand gun does is give a weaker person an adeqate defencive tool. JMHO

 

[baz]

But if no guns existed then none of this would have happened in the first place.

And then the small and the weak would be at the mercy of the big and strong -- or groups of them -- and the same sort of things would still happen.

This was said with amazing elegance by Tamara (note especially the highlighted part at the end):

As long as we have guns, people are going to get killed with them. Note that I didn't say "as long as we have private guns"; as long as we have guns period. That's just the way it is, folks, and don't think I'm not sorry to say it.

As long as we have jets, people are going to die in flaming crashes. As long as we have busses, people are going to get run over. As long as we have rocks, people are going to get their brains bashed in. As long as we have hands, folks are gonna get strangled.

And as long as we have guns, people are going to get killed with them. This is fact.

Guns are not going away. This is also fact. Understand that. This genie is not going back in the bottle. And understand when I say "people are going to get killed with them", I don't just mean a handful of folks at a mall every now and again, I also mean a few thousand people kneeling on the edge of a ditch every now and again. Just because a gun is publically held and not privately owned doesn't mean it's never going to be used to murder someone. Or thousands of someones. Understand that.