Bill would abolish gun free zones.

[Cal-gun Fan]

Uh...guns that are carried in a holster don't get set down. They stay in their holster. Or would you like to show us that people who carry a gun set it down and have it picked up and inappropriately used millions of times a year? Because, you know, in order for that argument to hold water the negative effect of 'guns being set down and forgot' would have to outweigh the positive effect of legal carriers using their guns in defense. Please tell me you don't really believe that to be true

What if you are in the library? Cafeteria? Walking between classes? Hallway? What if the shooter is in your room before a lockdown is done? What if he STARTS in your classroom?

You still think that a good guy/gal shooting back is worse than not. That is a shame. It really is.

You are completely right Warp. There really is NO WAY to be prepared for something like this. That is why I don't believe having a gun will help-you are more likely to do harm than good. There would most likely be a lot of students around and unless you are VERY close, you won't be able to tell who the shooter is.

Perhaps in colleges, it could be a good idea to let teachers and professors carry guns if they are legally able to. Not students, in my opinion, but teachers.

 

[FIVETWOSEVEN]

So you have one officer, I would think that if hes that well known, he would be the first to go and than whats to protect you? A lockdown? A mass shooter would probably choose a time like lunch where everyone is nicely packed into one room with the LEO there also.

Since you've missed my post twice, I'll post it a third time.

 

[Justin]

I don't think that less guns=more safety. However, what if a teacher is complacent? What if they leave it under the overhead desk? What if one of the students happens to get a hold of it? Its not nearly as simple of an issue as you think.

In Utah, teachers and students who possess a concealed carry permit can and do carry on campus.

None of the scenarios that you've brought up have manifested in the schools in Utah.

 

[Cal-gun Fan]

How about two.

The shooting at New Life Church in Colorado Springs a couple of years ago and the attempted shooting at the Appalachian School of Law are two examples where the perp was stopped by an armed citizen.

Thank you Justin, I figured there had to be a couple.

 

[Warp]

You are completely right Warp. There really is NO WAY to be prepared for something like this.

Sure there is a way to be prepared. Buy and read "Terror at Beslan".

That is why I don't believe having a gun will help-you are more likely to do harm than good.

Example of a legally carrying citizen causing more harm than good while fighting back against a mass shooting?

There would most likely be a lot of students around and unless you are VERY close, you won't be able to tell who the shooter is.

It won't be that hard to tell, especially if he is coming for you.

Perhaps in colleges, it could be a good idea to let teachers and professors carry guns if they are legally able to. Not students, in my opinion, but teachers

Perhaps we should stop making criminal empowerment zones.

 

[M-Cameron]

Perhaps in colleges, it could be a good idea to let teachers and professors carry guns if they are legally able to. Not students, in my opinion, but teachers.

why not students?

students are legally adults......just the same as professors......

is it an age issue.....

what about "adult" students?.....say that 40yr old guy who returns to college.....can he carry a gun?


heck, ive seen professors barely out of school themselves......mid to late 20's in some cases....are they "old enough" to carry?


what about schools with rifle and pistol teams.....some of those guys shoot TENS OF THOUSANDS of rounds a year, they are more familiar with guns than most people are with the backs of their own hands.......better trained with guns than most police officers........can they have guns on campus?

 

[Zoogster]

First of all, the Zone is disgraceful, it should certainly not extend a step beyond school property.


Second, for those talking about students with guns, most students would not have guns.
Most states require someone to be 21 to carry concealed. High School students are under 21.
The same goes for many students in college. Students fresh from High School are generally 18-19 when they start college, and that means they cannot even apply for a concealed carry license for some years.


Third, in places where anyone can get a license or permit to carry generally less than 5% do, and out of that percentage many do not routinely carry, they have one to make purchases easier, or in case they want to carry.
The actual number of people that both have a license and carry is small.
It would not be that different for the students over 21 in college, it is not as if suddenly most would be armed because the option to carry existed.
This means even if entirely legal, most students would not be carrying, as only those over 21 could, and likely under 5% of those who are over 21 would be. So the actual percentage of people carrying overall would be even less. Maybe 1% of students would be carrying.



For those arguing against people over 21 that go through whatever steps are required to carry having a gun in a school or college, why?
Why is the mall different?
The law restricts the law abiding. The madman intending to commit murders is not dissuaded by the much lesser crime of carrying where they shouldn't be. They are going to prison for life, going to be executed, commit suicide, or be killed eventually by responders. There is no additional charge that will compare to any one of those results from the murders they plan to commit.
As for only police at the schools? They don't sit in each class, and many campuses don't have very many total. And they better have at least a handful of them, because any lone uniformed officer or guard is likely to be the first target of a madman before anyone realizes there is even a problem. At which point the school is defenseless until other officers get a call, respond, decide on a course of action, and then proceeds to stop them, eventually.

 

[Justin]

You are completely right Warp. There really is NO WAY to be prepared for something like this. That is why I don't believe having a gun will help-you are more likely to do harm than good. There would most likely be a lot of students around and unless you are VERY close, you won't be able to tell who the shooter is.

Standard school protocol in the event of a mass shooter is to lock the classroom door and, as best as possible, move students away from doors or windows the shooter has access to.

In the previous cases of school shooters going through classrooms, it's fairly common for them to shoot through the door or shoot the lock off of the door to gain access to a classroom.

I would suspect that in such a case where the teacher has ushered the students to move to the back of the class and the shooter is attempting to gain access by shooting through the locks on the door that it would be pretty obvious who the shooter is.

Perhaps in colleges, it could be a good idea to let teachers and professors carry guns if they are legally able to. Not students, in my opinion, but teachers.

I had my carry permit while in college, as did a number of my friends. We didn't carry on campus because it was against the law, but I fail to understand how a group of people who carry legally every day when off campus are suddenly a danger to themselves and everyone else around them when on campus.

 

[Warp]

I am currently attending college as a full time student and a part time employee (security position, no less). I am not legally permitted to carry a firearm on campus despite being licensed by the state. I previously attended the majority of a police academy. This included all of basic and advanced firearms. This training went far beyond the state minimum for peace officers. I had the highest shooting scores in my class, and in fact higher scores than the majority of the department.

Please explain why I should not be allowed to carry my pistol on campus.

*I also legally carried as a student for 2 years in Indiana. To class every single day for two years. Also to every home football game (Purdue). Not a problem. I knew quite a few others who carried too. Guess what...not a problem!

To say that my being armed in the event of an attempted mass shooting will only make things worse is, quite frankly, freaking ridiculous.

 

[bushmaster1313]

Don't know what shooting it was but one was stopped when a student ran out to his car and got his handgun and stopped the shooter without firing a shot.


Quote:
So not wanting one's child to go to a school or college where other students, who at that age are probably not the most responsible of people, can carry guns on campus is being liberal? Thats funny

How would carrying in school be different than carrying in public?

I think he ran to get his shotgun from his car or truck.

Also, I think the shooter in Tuscon was stopped by a licensed CCW who used a chair instead of pulling his gun.

 

[FIVETWOSEVEN]

Kinda off topic but can you legally carry on a College Campus in NH? I haven't seen any laws about College.

 

[Danb1215]

Since guns evidently do more harm than good for self defense maybe you can just hold up a copy of the gun free school zones act and see if it stops bullets. You're one cop by the way will probably retreat outside to the perimeter set up by other cops while they wait for the shooting to stop. Historically, they do a much better of job holding the line than going in under these circumstances.

 

[Danb1215]

Kinda off topic but can you legally carry on a College Campus in NH? I haven't seen any laws about College.

It's legal in NH although the college might throw you out over it. I'm looking into moving there and the only place it seems you can't take your gun at least under state law is a courthouse.

 

[Kendal Black]

People make mistakes. Guns can get put down for a moment and forgotten. They can be picked up by someone who should not pick it up.

This does not happen in my universe. Fire up the old Ansible and explain more fully. We have holsters here. Thumb snaps, hammer thongs, we've tried just about everything to help the forgetful.

 

[FIVETWOSEVEN]

It's legal in NH although the college might throw you out over it. I'm looking into moving there and the only place it seems you can't take your gun at least under state law is a courthouse.

Thanks, My understanding is you can't carry in a school zone either. The College that I'm attending in the fall doesn't allow weapons but I'm certainly bringing my knife like I always do so its sharing a spot with my wallet again.

 

[alsaqr]

Enforcement of the school zones law is spotty and enforcement is left up to county sheriffs and local police. i hog hunt with a couple who live right beside a school. i drive up to their house, they put their guns in the truck and off we go. In OK high school students who want to hunt after school have guns in their trucks on school property. So long as the vehicle is locked and the gun is out sight there is no problem.

If you live in a state without draconian anti-gun laws and without anti-gun state and local officials you are pretty much home free.

This is a law that should have never been passed. It is also a law that will probably never be repealed.

 

[Cal-gun Fan]

I think he ran to get his shotgun from his car or truck.

Also, I think the shooter in Tuscon was stopped by a licensed CCW who used a chair instead of pulling his gun.

No, it was not. A group of people basically jumped on the guy. And isn't Arizona Constitutional Carry?

I think that one of the main problems with this argument is the difference in territory. The people and the mindsets are different. Back in California, I think that people being able to carry guns in schools would do more harm than good. In Texas, Nevada, Arizona, or other more conservative states, I think that it could be a good thing. But I just do not know. All I know is this: Very rarely is a mass-shooting stopped by a CCW holder, and I do not mean school shootings by that.
I suppose that it could have benefits. It could have negative consequences. Who knows?

You make very valid points-perhaps I am just stubborn and old fashioned. I understand that people who are normally allowed to carry anywhere but schools are not allowed to on campus. This seems bad on principle, but there are a lot of other things that are allowed outside of school that are not allowed inside of school as well, so to me it does not seem so alien or wrong.

The more I think about it, I do see a positive side of CCW teachers carrying, but not for defense. I do think that it could possibly help change attitudes towards guns and sway more antis towards supporting them. That could be a positive ramification.

 

[ugaarguy]

Ok then, name one mass-shooting that has been stopped by a licensed carrier.

Pearl, MS shooter was also stopped by the vice principal when attempted to flee to the junior high school to continue his mass murdering.
http://www.davekopel.com/2a/othwr/principal&gun.htm

 

[FIVETWOSEVEN]

Why do you avoid my statement Cal guns? You claim that a lock down will save us all in school but what if he strike during lunch and starts off killing with that one LEO?

The more I think about it, I do see a positive side of CCW teachers carrying, but not for defense.

The point of CCW is for self defense, not to sway antis into supporting them. The teachers that would carry I doubt would even tell the class that they are carrying. For all you know a teacher in your school could be carrying illegally.

 

[Cal-gun Fan]

Yes, but he waited for him to flee, he didn't stop it in progress. Its good to see he was stopped from doing any more damage though.

 

[M-Cameron]

All I know is this: Very rarely is a mass-shooting stopped by a CCW holder

thats like saying lunar eclipses rarely happen February 29th.........


mass shootings are a rare occurrence.......and people with carry permits arent exactly common......so it remains to be seen that few mass shootings are stopped by a person with a CCW.

but that doesnt mean that a CCW is useless in the event of a mass shooting.

 

[Jericho 941]

You might be the first person I have ever heard say that it is OK to drink and wield a gun... That said, I do not know of incident like what your described, but I know that people show lax judgement when drinking.

I just think there is some logic to limiting guns in a place where fights are bound to happen once or twice a week.

 

[Cal-gun Fan]

Why do you avoid my statement Cal guns? You claim that a lock down will save us all in school but what if he strike during lunch and starts off killing with that one LEO?



The point of CCW is for self defense, not to sway antis into supporting them. The teachers that would carry I doubt would even tell the class that they are carrying. For all you know a teacher in your school could be carrying illegally.

I am not avoiding the statement you have reposted 3 times so far, but there are a lot of other statements I wanted to respond to. I read yours and I think that it is a good point.

 

[ugaarguy]

Yes, but he waited for him to flee, he didn't stop it in progress. Its good to see he was stopped from doing any more damage though.

No, he had to get his gun out of his truck, and caught up with the kid as the kid was about to flee. The kid was also about to flee to the junior high school, and continue shooting. The kid wasn't done shooting. If that doesn't meet your definition of in progress I don't know what does. Obviously no amount of reasoning, nor logic will influence your preconceived opinion.

 

[FIVETWOSEVEN]

I am not avoiding the statement you have reposted 3 times so far, but there are a lot of other statements I wanted to respond to. I read yours and I think that it is a good point.

Its more than a good point, you're relying on two things that one, isn't effective whatsoever at certain times during the day and two, is easily removed. Put those two things together at once and all you can do it pray.