Black Powder For Self Defense?

[JohnKSa]

...BP be loaded in modern handloaded shotshells and used in single shot or pump action HD guns?

It can. One of the attractions of muzzle-loading firearms is that they are generally far less legally restricted compared to typical modern metallic cartridge firearms.

What you're talking about would give you all the legal disadvantages of a modern firearm with most of the disadvantages of using black powder. In other words, other than for the nostalgic aspects there's very little reason to take this approach to shooting BP.

 

[Skookumchuk]

JohnKSa, maybe that is why I've never tried it.

Thanks anyway - that is what I thought.

 

[Novus Collectus]

Antique Collector

So antiques are entirely excluded from the definition of "firearm" therefore they don't fit the definition of a "pistol" since they are not firearms. Well, that's how I read it anyways.

They are excluded from the definition of "firearms" within that chapter and that chapter alone. In another chapter they define a pistol as any firearm with a barrel less than 16 inches.

This is the chapter you cited and it starts with these words:

Title 7. Human Health Care and Safety
Subtitle J. Public Safety
Chapter 25. Firearms Control
Unit A. Firearms Control Regulations
Subchapter I. General Provisions
7-2501.01. Definitions. As used in this chapter
the term:

This is the chapter I cited:

Division IV. Criminal Law and Procedure and
Prisoners
Title 22. Criminal Offenses and Penalties
Subtitle VI. Regulation and Possession of
Weapons
Chapter 45. Weapons and Possession of
Weapons
22-4501. Definitions.
(a) "Pistol," as used in this chapter, means
any firearm with a barrel less than 12 inches in
length.

http://www.atf.treas.gov/firearms/statelaws/26thedition/washingtondc.pdf

Now if the one chapter referenced the definitions in the other chapter, then that would be different.
I am not sure how DC code is read in DC courts, but it seems to me that a BP revolver is a "pistol" in some of the code unless it has a >16 inch barrel.

But all of this is pretty much moot since it is illegal to have the powder to load it because the only "ammunition" that can be possessed is ammunition specific to a registered firearm on the firearm certificate.

 

[Zoogster]

Apologies if this has been asked before, but can BP be loaded in modern handloaded shotshells and used in single shot or pump action HD guns? I can see where they might not cycle in a semiauto, but I'm guessing they would work in all other types. It would be messy, but doable. Or am I missing something?

It most definately can, though I don't know why you would want to. If I am reading that right you would still be using a modern cartridge firearm like a shotgun, and therefore it is still a firearm regardless of what you load it with.
The smokeless powder would create lots of smoke (and extra filth in your gun), which does not hide you, but hides your target from you since it is in front of you at face height blocking thier silhouette from your sight, but still allowing them to view your silhouette. So it reduces your ability to aim without reducing thiers.

However the dram loadings you see on many standard shotgun shells are in fact thier black powder equivalent. So not only can you use black powder, but the amount is already listed for you
There is going to be a lot less extra room, so less wadding and more powder below the shot.

 

[AntiqueCollector]

Now if the one chapter referenced the definitions in the other chapter, then that would be different.
I am not sure how DC code is read in DC courts, but it seems to me that a BP revolver is a "pistol" in some of the code unless it has a >16 inch barrel.

But all of this is pretty much moot since it is illegal to have the powder to load it because the only "ammunition" that can be possessed is ammunition specific to a registered firearm on the firearm certificate.

Now that does throw a monkey wrench into it. The only antique exception in that section reads differently than the other: "22-4513. Exceptions. Except as provided in
§ 22-4502 and § 22-4514(b), this chapter shall
not apply to toy or antique pistols unsuitable for
use as firearms."

But, with the barrel less than 12 inch definition, it would mean the "buffalo" or "texas" versions of the 1858 Remington is not considered a pistol as it has a 12 inch barrel. Or you can put a 12 inch barrel on any other "antique." The short-barrel rifle prohibition is in chapter 25 which exempts all "antiques" and I only noticed the short barrel shotgun law in chapter 45 not the short barrel rifle, so I don't think that would apply. Antiques are also exempt from the registration requirements as far as I can tell. How one would buy the ammunition is another matter though. Mail order maybe? Not a lot of places will even sell to DC residents though.

Just reading DC laws gives me a headache, I couldn't imagine anyone wanting to live under those laws.

 

[Browning]

Nortonics : Uberti 1858 with a rifled barrel. Used extensively in Europe where gunpowder firearms are generally illegal to own/use for self protection - accurate and lethal. Please pass the Pepto Bismol...

Huh?

I didn't think that most Europeans (except for a few countries) could own any kind of firearm, even BP.

Well you learn something new everyday.

 

[Novus Collectus]

But, with the barrel less than 12 inch definition, it would mean the "buffalo" or "texas" versions of the 1858 Remington is not considered a pistol as it has a 12 inch barrel. Or you can put a 12 inch barrel on any other "antique." The short-barrel rifle prohibition is in chapter 25 which exempts all "antiques" and I only noticed the short barrel shotgun law in chapter 45 not the short barrel rifle, so I don't think that would apply. Antiques are also exempt from the registration requirements as far as I can tell. How one would buy the ammunition is another matter though. Mail order maybe? Not a lot of places will even sell to DC residents though.

That is how I understand it too AC. Except the black powder and bullets would be illegal to possess at all. If they wanted to though, they could own the greater than 12 inch barrel "antique" and take it to MD buying the ammunition here and use it here.

Also, the "buffallo" 1858 would be a good way to go, but also I think it might be allowed to cut down the stock and the barrel as long as it is still over 12 inches of a revolving carbine too.

 

[Novus Collectus]

Huh?

I didn't think that most Europeans (except for a few countries) could own any kind of firearm, even BP.

Well you learn something new everyday.

Eastern Europe aside, most European countries allow some kind of modern firearms ownership. Even in England one can own and use cap and ball pistols, cartridge firing shotguns and rifles.
In France I have read it is easy to get a cap and ball revolver and it is not hard to get a license for lever action rifles, but semi automatics and pistols are a little effort. They do have some AR15 owners there though.
In Germany, though somewhat restriced, one can own handguns and semi auto rifles.
In Luxembourg I hear it is easier to own guns of almost all kinds than it is in Germany.
In Switzerland....well I think we are all familiar with Switzerland.
In some Western European countries it is not easy to own handguns, such as Spain, Italy and Greece as I understand it, but it is possible and there are many shotguns in those countries.
In the former Eastern Block countries....may as well live in the UK, as I hear.

On a side note, contrary to popular belief, people can use a shotgun in defense of the home in the UK. They just can't use the reason of self defense to get a firearms certificate to get the shotgun.

 

[roscoe]

I'm kind of curious, does anyone know how to make precussion caps from scratch?

I've always wondered how hard they are to make as I've never gotten into BP.

Check out the Tap-O-Cap. You can make your own caps from aluminum beer cans (although you should really be drinking beer from a bottle.).

 

[Browning]

roscoe : Check out the Tap-O-Cap. You can make your own caps from aluminum beer cans (although you should really be drinking beer from a bottle.).

Tap O Cap?

Okay, I've never even heard of it.

 

[Greysand]

The Tap O Cap is a good idea, but IMO its only half a good idea. http://westlakeengineering.com/4640/4694.html?*session*id*key*=*session*id*val*

It allows to you make you own caps by punching them out of old alum. cans. A pretty good idea really. but it's only half the solution. you still have to prime them somehow. they say to use those red roll toy caps that come in a roll of 1000 for a few bucks. But you have to use 2 or 3 at a time to get enough prime. And only certain brands of the caps work.

If someone could come up with a simple safe way to prime these homemade caps without using store bought products, I'd be all over the idea.

The little red plastic caps that you clip apart do seem to work, (mostly) but keep in mind that the hammer will drive bits of plastic into the flash hole of the nipple, clogging it after the first shot.

 

[DutchmanDick]

The Starr double-action army revolver that Clint Eastwood used in "Unforgiven" is currently being reproduced by Fratelli Pietta. As of this posting, Dixie Gunworks has them on sale for $350.00.

The Starr has a rather unique mechanism. Unlike what we generally think of a "double-action" revolver, where you can either thumb-cock the hammer and then pull the trigger, or just take a long pull on the trigger, the Starr essentially has two triggers. The front one, which looks like a conventional revolver trigger, is actually just a cocking lever: all it does is cock the hammer and revolve the cylinder. The firing trigger sits right in the back of the trigger guard, sort of like the exposed sear in the old, cheap Harrington & Richardson and NEF revolvers (and others of the sort). There is a slide with a lug on it on the back of the cocking lever. When the slide is in the "up" position, a straight pull through on the cocking lever cocks the hammer, revolves the cylinder, and then depresses the firing trigger when it's back all the way. When the slide is in the "down" position, the lug on the slide prevents the cocking lever from moving back far enough to contact the firing trigger. You then release the cocking lever and put your trigger finger on the firing trigger for single-action fire. The rear sight is a notch in the hammer-nose, like a Colt C&B revolver, which makes the sights hard to use in double-action mode. I think the reasoning at the time the gun was developed was that the double-action mode would be used in a close-quarters situation where a fast repeat shot was more important than fine aim, while if you had time to aim then the slower single-action mode wasn't going to be an impediment. The Starr, like the Remington, has an enclosed frame, but it is unique in that by removing a knurled thumb-screw the frame can be broken open like a top-break revolver, allowing for exchange of cylinders or easier cleaning (and as far as I know, nobody mass-produces a cartridge conversion cylinder for the Starr). When properly tuned, the Starr wouldn't be a bad choice if you HAD to use a C&B gun, due to the rapid-fire ability and .44 caliber ball. Also, the lack of a cylinder-pin keeps the Starr from jamming due to excessive fouling, and the 12 cylinder-bolt slots allows 6 chambers to be loaded. Unlike the Colt or Remington, which rely on the hammer to lock the cylinder between chambers (and thus could potentially be jarred out of place), once the Starr is locked between chambers by the cylinder bolt you have to deliberately do the long pull on the cocking lever to get the cylinder to turn.

BTW, another reason the round ball is a better stopper than one might guess is exactly due to its ballistic inefficiency: it tends to dump all of its energy in the target, even if it doesn't hit a bone and flatten out.

As for corrosive powder, try Goex Pinnacle. It isn't supposed to be hygroscopic (absorbing moisture from the air) and claims to have an indefinite shelf-life, and is sulfur-free (the burning of sulfur in Pyrodex and black powder, combined with moisture in the air, makes a weak sulfuric acid - the biggest cause of the corrosion). Pinnacle also cleans up with just soap and water. But still a wise idea to fire out all the loads, clean, and reload, just to be safe. Also, if the gun will be stored loaded for an extended period, use beeswax over the balls and NOT Crisco to prevent chain-fire. In hot conditions, Crisco will melt and get into your powder and ruin it. Or, load an Ox Yoke "Wonder Wad" behind the ball.

 

[cleardiddion]

Good post but it seems as though this thread has turned zombie.

 

[StrawHat]

In a couple of resposes it has been mentioned that BP promotes rusting. Not so, BP residue will draw moisture and cause rust but BP itself is similar in nature to any gunpowder. BP firearms have been left loaded for years and still go bang when the trigger is pulled. And no rust in the powder area.

Also to be considered for this thread. A BP pistol or revolver may be legal to own but use it to harm someone (SD or otherwise) and it becomes a deadly weapon.

Still, better than a rock or a sword for use in a house. Of course rocks won't set the drapes on fire!

 

[moooose102]

using a bp revolver for concealed carry self defense would be a real challenge! first, most are quite bulky. second, there is a LOT of mainenence, third, you had better make da#$ sure that you are either 100% legal, or be 100% certain you can get away with no one seeing you. once you shoot a bp revolver, there will be no doubt about where the shot came from. so you had also be certain to do the job with the first shot. return fire will be easily directed. fourth, they are really a little on the messy side. if you do not shoot it, there is grease over all the loaded chambers, so when you touch one off, the rest dont follw suit, then, if you do shoot it, you have to tear it down, wash it in soap and water, then dry and oil it. not really user freindly for ccw self defense. in 1868, that is all there was, and it was way better than a pointy stick. but nowdays, there are much better options. even if you can not get a firearm. pepper spray, tazers, bear spray (probably illegal, but if your life is on the line.....) or any number of options. think about it, consult a local gun store and see what you come up with. or better yet, get the heck out of nyc!

 

[Fred Fuller]

Necromancy... if you want to discuss the topic, start a new thread with a question or statement and have at it, but let dead threads rest in peace, please.

lpl