BP newbie needs help with bullet choice for Rogers and Spencer .44

[valencia]

Hi everyone, this is my first post. I am completely new to BP and have just taken delivery of a Euroarms Rogers and Spencer revolver in London Grey. This is the standard model and NOT the one with the Lothar Walther barrel.

I have had a look around on several forums and have found conflicting information on the best type and size bullets. The manufacturer stated it was meant to fire 0.451 inch balls or bullets but I have seen people using up to 0.458. I have also seen conflicting recommendations between conical and round balls for the best accuracy.

I will be using it with Swiss powder, probably Swiss No1 which is equal to ffffg and will be shooting targets single handed at 25 meters.

I am going to cast my own bullets from wheel weights, as bullets (like everything else) are very expensive in Europe! It looks as though the only moulds I can get easily are the Lee ones.
Lee lists the following which may be suitable:
Conical - .450 200 grain and .456 220 grain
Round - .451, .454 and .457

Barrel specs are:
Bore diameter 11.32 mm which is 0.4457 inches
Rifling depth of 0.12 mm which is 0.0047 inches
Barrel length is 7 ½ inches with 6 grooves and the twist is 900mm or 36 inches.

One thing that may affect bullet choice slightly is that the chambers on this gun are chamfered at the mouth and they are also supposedly tapered where as on most reproduction guns they are straight (or at least thats what I gather from various posts!)

So what is the best type and size bullet for this gun?

Cant wait to try it out!!

 

[Skirmisher 263]

.457 RB soft lead
20-25 gr. 3F

 

[Crawdad1]

Hmmm, this sounds like one of those Hege/FWB built Rogers and Spencer revolvers.

 

[valencia]

Thanks, but pure lead is expensive, like $25 - $30 a Kg here, same as bullets!
I have also read that the slightly harder lead in wheel weights produces less leading in the barrel.
I am pretty much stuck with wheel weights!

 

[valencia]

Its the Euroarms one. I think it was meant for the US market as it is in a Euroarms America box and has the extra "Black powder only made in Italy" on the barrel which I dont think the European model did.

 

[Crawdad1]

Shoot it, she'll tell ya. I started with my present revolver at 30 grains of GOEx 3Fg, 2 OXy wads and a 451 ball, accuracy was dismal. I then went to 35 grains, 1 OXy wad and a 451 ball and then changed to a 454 ball and again accuracy was dismal. High and higher left all the time. Sometimes it shot so far to the left and high that I placed 2 targets side by side and aimed at the bottom right-hand corner of the right target and hit the second target's left-hand corner.

I started to give up. :banghead:


Don't!!!!

 

[Crawdad1]

Nice!!!

Is there a problem getting all three or 2 of the three listed of the round ball molds?

 

[Fingers McGee]

Crawdad, is the front sight straight up & down? Sounds like the barrel is turned too far. Also, a smaller charge and one wad might give better results. More isn't always better.

Valencia, Skirmisher 263s recommendation is right on.

I've found over the years that my .44s work best with 24 gr fffg and a .454 pure lead round ball; although. I don't shoot a R&S.

 

[valencia]

Crawdad - They are about $50 each here so I was hoping to narrow it down some ! ; )

Fingers How much difference would it make if I used the wheel weights rather than pure lead? The only pure I have seen is exactly the same price as bullets so about $30 - $35 for 100 balls. I was hoping to get the cost per shot down. I can get wheel weights free from a friend. As I said I have heard there is less fouling with the slightly harder lead.
Cost of anything to do with guns is about 2 - 3 times as much here as in the US. I looked at a Ruger MK3 and it was about $1000 here! Got a Berreta 87 target instead.

 

[Crawdad1]

Also, a smaller charge and one wad might give better results.

Definitely Fingers!!!!

Those initial loads were rattling that 1860 Army something fierce. I now shoot 25 grains of GOEx 3Fg, 1 OXy wad and a 454 round ball. I'm very pleased.

But the point I was trying to make was you'll only know for sure when you shoot it. But, Valencia is saying he wants to narrow it down some because the cost for components is so high over in Europe.

I don't have a suggestion on that point. I've never owned and I don't know anyone that does own a Rogers and Spencer revolver.

 

[DD4lifeusmc]

choice

3Fg is normally used in these revolvers. 4F can be.
pure lead is still the best.
Wheel weights are not always lead anymore.
And they can be too hard. you can blend them with real lead
2 or 3 oz of weight to a pound will work.
Your lead mixture should stay at or above 97% pure.
The metal in these barrels aren't as hard an tough as modern guns.
Even pure lead really won't lead up the barrel much, if at all if you use
a good lube for Black Powder.
a
as others 20 to 25 gr on average. Round ball or conical won't matter much if you fo your job in aiming, unless your particular gun just favors one over the other.

 

[Skirmisher 263]

Normally you want a ball that you can swage into the chambers. Using WWs will make that very difficult. It is also very easy to bend the loading lever at the cut out where it is the weakest. I would advise you to use a separate loading stand/press to load the cylinder. Go with a .454 RB as it should cast at .454+.

As stated full chamber loads of powder make for great fun and smoke but rarely best accuracy. Also I wouldn't waste time with conicals until you have RBs worked out. Most competitive shooters use RBs. Seat them as close to the mouth of the chamber as possible without interfering with cylinder rotation. Use a dipper of some sort to fill the space left in the chamber with a filler. I like to use grits as they are easily compressible but wads are ok if that's what you want to use.

Smear a little grease or lube of your choice over the chamber mouths and you're ready to assemble, cap and shoot.

Euroarms is out of business so I would recommend that it would be prudent to acquire any spare parts that are subject to wear and breakage sooner than later, especially the mainspring. Also the London Grey was very limited in production and is generally sought after.

 

[Malachi Leviticus Blue]

If you really are set of using wheel weight "Lead" than you might want to stay on the smaller side for the balls because they will be harder than they should be, and more difficult to load. They can work but it is not your best choice. You don't want to break your loading lever.

 

[rodwha]

With such a slow twist I'm not sure it will do so well with conicals unless you get a custom mold made that drops them about the same length as the ball. I had this done after reading the Pietta Remington '58 I was purchasing would also have a slow twist, and so I had a mold made to drop a bullet at .400" and .460" long.

I used Accurate Molds and had them make it from aluminum both for the cost, but also so that it would heat faster. This is what I had made:

http://accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=45-170C-D.png

http://accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=45-195C-D.png

As it turned out they quickened the twist by the time mine was made as it is 1:16" twist like my Ruger. Both do well with these short bullets.

If you cannot get a custom mold made I'd think it best to just go with a ball mold. And since you are not intending on using pure lead you may not want to oversize the ball too much as it would strain the loading lever assembly and frame.

 

[Fingers McGee]

Fingers How much difference would it make if I used the wheel weights rather than pure lead?

As DD4lifeusmc said; not all wheel weights are lead anymore. If you can get ahold of some no joke real lead weights; they may be soft enough to use; and, as Malachi said, cast them in a smaller size (.451) so they are easy to load.

 

[Hellgate]

Valencia,
Don't hesitate to scrounge for lead. Lead sheeting from roofing, lead pipes in old plumbing, underground cable sheathing, cast iron sewer pipe joints, X-ray room walls have leaded sheeting, X-ray machine counterweights, sailboats being scrapped may have lead ballast. Ask around. Another source is decorative leaded glass studios often have a scrap bucket of lead trimmings. They may have a fair amount of solder in the scrap but it won't be as hard as wheel weights.

 

[valencia]

Guys I am so grateful for all the advice, it is great to be able to draw on the knowledge and experience of so many "brothers in arms"!

I have decided I will get a pack of each of .451 (recommended by the manufacturer but no one else!) .454 and .457 balls as suggested and try them to see which works best. Then I will get a mold.

I take the scrap aluminum from my business to a scrap metal yard so I will ask them if they have any pure lead, I am sure they will, also I have a friend who is a plumber and allot of the old houses here still have some lead pies so he may be a source.

Hellgate - there are several custom window makers in town so good idea!

Skirmisher - thanks for the suggestion on the spares I will order a main spring and also a couple of the lever retaining screws.

I will also take the advice and get fffg. I have bought some vine charcoal and am experimenting with making BP, seems to work well but I will start with the real stuff!

Once again thanks to all for the amazing help!

 

[Mike OTDP]

First, check the chamber dimensions. With a .446 barrel, I think you'll be OK there, but the cylinder chambers will drive bullet selection.

Second, go with the round balls. Especially for MLAIC competition (which you seem to be setting up for). Soft lead is highly recommended.

Most revolver shooters are using Swiss #2 powder (3F), but Swiss #1 will work if you have it. I'd recommend a starting load of 15 grains, work up and down from there.