Budget home defense rifle

[monotonous_iterancy]

You might also re-think the handgun thing.

If you're under 21, you can't buy a handgun from a dealer, but it is legal to buy one from a private party if you're 18 or older (go figure). Anyway, that's the federal law most people come up against. You might also have some state laws that bar what you want to do.

I thought of a private sale. She could keep it in her nightstand, readily accessible. But, handguns are the hardest to shoot. If it's a semi, there's the possibility of limp wristing, and the manual of arms with releasing the magazine and racking it and such. If it's a revolver, there is the heavy DA trigger pull to overcome.

And handguns are really a compromise. They're not the best at stopping determined attackers, but they're available places long guns aren't.

And either way, she'd have to get ammo from a private party too. So, not much opportunity to practice.

I really think birdshot would be terrible. I once shot an empty pesticide can made of plastic with 7 1/2 birdshot. Most of the pellets went through one side, but I don't remember much of anything making it through the second. Some pellets actually got stuck on impact.

 

[joeschmoe]

20 gauge pump
Cable lock
Practical shooting class
8 inch chefs knife
Self defense class
3 cell "C" Mag LED flashlight

For purse/EDC;
Pepper spray
Spyderco Delica
Felinix LED flashlight

 

[monotonous_iterancy]

The difference between cracking open a shotty to apply a round in an emergency situation and producing a levering action to chamber a round is pretty minimal unless you decide that this home defense firearm needs to be unloaded at all times (really?) at which point you add pushing a round into the sidegate. Or a similar action in a pump action shotgun.

I'll teach her to rack with authority. I also really wish I had a lever action for her to try.

She's not weak and flimsy though. She's a volunteer firefighter. She has to drag hoses.

I'm planning on letting her shoot my 10/22, my SKS, my 20 gauge, and maybe my Mosin Nagant if she's up for something hard kicking. I'm pretty limited with my own options.

 

[allaroundhunter]

20 gauge pump
Cable lock
Practical shooting class
8 inch chefs knife
Self defense class
3 cell "C" Mag LED flashlight

Except for the knife, good choices.

I would add pepper spray to both home and EDC kits.

 

[GRIZ22]

You can get the 18 1/2" NEF pump for under $200.

 

[rondog]

I vote for the 9mm HiPoint carbine. I have two of them, and a .40, and I wouldn't hesitate to use one for HD if I didn't already have an M1 carbine set up for it. Teach her how to use it and use it well, and be familiar with it, then have her keep it in Con 1 with the safety on so it's ready to go. When seconds count she doesn't need to be trying to charge a round into it. A cheap BSA red-dot sight is a wonderful compliment to them as well, but that's something that has to be turned on under stress.

 

[monotonous_iterancy]

I vote for the 9mm HiPoint carbine.

That's what I was thinking at first...but that NEF shotgun is tempting. Although I hear it's extremely loud, even for a shotgun. Like M44 Mosin loud.

 

[rondog]

Have you ever checked out/fired a 9mm HP carbine? You and her should give one a whirl if it's possible for you. Yeah, "they only hold 10 rounds" (OMG!), but how many do you really need for HD?

 

[monotonous_iterancy]

Have you ever checked out/fired a 9mm HP carbine? You and her should give one a whirl if it's possible for you. Yeah, "they only hold 10 rounds" (OMG!), but how many do you really need for HD?

Well, there are aftermarket magazines that hold 15. But no, I've never fired a hi-point. I don't know of a way I could without actually buying one.

 

[Doug S]

Having once owned a 9mm Hi Point Carbine, it's not a gun that I'd highly recommend. It was reliable in terms of functioning, but not an easy gun to clean, and the magazines do not give the impression of being very well made. Just my opinion. Also had the Sub 2000 which was also reliable, and was better in the other categories I mentioned above.

 

[monotonous_iterancy]

Sub 2000

I just looked it up. It does seem to be a better carbine choice.

 

[MattShlock]

Could go for a .410. Lighter recoil. effective

As for penetrating drywall in a house, if it penetrates a human, it will penetrate dry wall. I'd focus more on training.

Of course; again, the .410 is as powerful as .357 which is usually considered pretty potent especially at point blank range. The 3" Win PDX HD rounds have 4 copper Defense Disc bullets and 16 .18 pellets. The 2-3/4" with 3 and 12, respectively, might be enough for a little apartment. Common buckshot rounds have 3 .36 balls...

Then there's the adjustable length pink camo Mossberg 20 ga. I put a picture up of. What girl wouldn't love that and be taken to the range with it?

; )

 

[fpgt72]

Most apartments have VERY thin walls, one I lived in back in the day had only 2 sheets of sheetrock, with about a 3" space in the middle for the electrical to run down. I really think that any pistol, or rifle round will over pen if you miss....and if a bad guy is coming after you chances are you are going to be a little jittery and have a good likelihood of missing.

Shotgun, or one of the hand guns that shoot the 410 are what I would suggest.

 

[Bartholomew Roberts]

If you choose a shotgun, it really does not make much difference what type of shot you have loaded at across-the-room distances

Yes, it does matter. There are two basic ways shooting someone stops them from continuing their assault - psychological (Ouch! That hurt. I do not want that to happen again. Let's get out of here!) and physiological (they body shuts down and cannot physically continue).

The factors around a psychological stop are outside of our control and depend entirely on the mindset of our attacker. In order to force a physiological stop, you must either stop the central nervous system or cause a large enough drop in blood pressure that blood does not reach the brain in sufficient quantities.

In order to reach the CNS (which is typically very deep and well protected) or large blood-bearing organs you need penetration. The FBI has found that a round that penetrates a minimun of 12" in ballistic gel is necessary to do this from a variety of angles and shots (and 18" is better).

#6 birdshot and lighter doesn't come close to that. Each pellet is light so each individual pellet loses momentum quickly. Typically, the deepest penetrating pellet is around 5" with the bulk at 3-4" - and that is in bare jello with no skin, bones or clothing.

Every time this discussion comes up someone says "Use birdshot because it won't penetrate 1" of powdered gypsum backed with paper" and then they make the contrary argument that it will be just as effective as any other shotgun shell on a 150-200lb mammal because of the range. That's nonsense. Birdshot has a very low likelihood of causing a physiological stop. It may cause a psychological stop depending on what kind of attacker you draw but there is at least one often discussed case where an attacker took a load of #6 high brass to the face from 6 FEET and was blinded in one eye. Said attacker then killed the person he had been chasing with buckshot.

We've done this thread 1000 times in Shotgun. There is lots of good reading on the subject there. However the short version is any load - pistol, rifle, shotgun - that meets the FBI minimum recommended criteria, is capable of penetrating multiple interior walls and still has a chance to be lethal.

 

[Deltaboy1984]

20 gauge shotgun.

 

[JShirley]

again, the .410 is as powerful as .357 which is usually considered pretty potent especially at point blank range

Since I suggested a .357 rifle, I can only arrive at a few potential conclusions, none of them pleasant. They are:

1) You are deliberately ignoring the suggestion of a RIFLE (and the fact this entire thread is about longarms);
2) You are ignorant of the facts;
3) You are being deliberately deceptive.

I suppose the most flattering would be #2, simply not knowing the facts, but if you didn't know, why would you make the claim? Now, I have a few paragraphs' worth of research, but we can make this really simple.

Winchester only lists one .357 load from a rifle, their 158 grain Super-X traveling at 1830 fps. It has 1175 ft-lbs of energy at the muzzle.

Again, apples to apples, Winchester .410 1/4 oz slug at 1800 fps. 788 ft-lbs at the muzzle.

Now, the 158 grain Super-X is not what I would suggest for home defense, as I believe it will penetrate too much. Going with the common bulk Remington UMC 125 grain SJHP could drop your energy by as much as 25 ft-lbs.

I know, someone will want to talk about Winchester's super-duper new .410 defensive loads. Yeah, they're not powerful, either. I was actually amazed at how powerful Winchester's XB413 000 3" load was...until I realized that Winchester's site has mistakenly listed the shot in this shell as weighing 10X what it actually does.

The .357 from a rifle is a serious home defense piece. With lighter-weight, rapidly expanding bullets at high velocity, it has ideal penetration* and decisive expansion. The .410 is only a "good" choice for people who already own one, and nothing better.

*by some standards. I personally would prefer 8-11" of very destructive penetration for home defense, but the .357 rifle with the right ammunition fits exactly into the 12-18" penetration envelope.

John

 

[MistWolf]

I thought of a private sale. She could keep it in her nightstand, readily accessible. But, handguns are the hardest to shoot. If it's a semi, there's the possibility of limp wristing, and the manual of arms with releasing the magazine and racking it and such. If it's a revolver, there is the heavy DA trigger pull to overcome.

And handguns are really a compromise. They're not the best at stopping determined attackers, but they're available places long guns aren't.

And either way, she'd have to get ammo from a private party too. So, not much opportunity to practice.

I really think birdshot would be terrible. I once shot an empty pesticide can made of plastic with 7 1/2 birdshot. Most of the pellets went through one side, but I don't remember much of anything making it through the second. Some pellets actually got stuck on impact.

You're over-thinking the whole thing. In most jurisdictions, it's legal for a parent to purchase a firearm, handgun or long gun, for their minor child.

Buckshot does have problems with over-penetration. So do handgun rounds. One of the best rounds to reduce over penetration through walls is the 5.56.

Limp-wristing and other pistol problems are easily overcome with training. If she's a firefighter, she'll be able to handle a pistol just fine.

Regardless of what Uncle Joe would have us believe, the shotgun has disadvantages- high recoil, low magazine capacity. Birdshot is also known to have poor terminal performance in self defense shootings.

AR carbines are light, low recoiling, simple to operate, accurate, reliable, compact and durable. They have good magazine capacity and good terminal performance and reduced risk from over penetration.

The simplest answer to your self defense needs is a 9mm Glock and a Colt 6920. The Colt can often be found at Wally World for around $1k and I believe lay away is available. Buy mags and ammo and go to a good training class

 

[monotonous_iterancy]

Very few people have the skill, ruthlessness, and presence of mind to truly control their environment, well under 1 % of them, actually. There's no way on God's Green Earth that more than a 3 million US citizens have such ability. That's 1% of our 300 million people. So, yes, the gun, any gun, IS just a "bluff", because they aint Bill Jordan, Jeff Cooper, or Jim Cirillo. We don't have 3000 men like that, in the entire country. We are discussing what is suitable for a young woman here.

Since the gun is just going to be a "bluff" basically, it should be a low cost, handy one, with (normally) low cost ammo that is also low in blast and recoil. Nobbody wants to get shot, even with a "mere" .22. So normally, just the sight of the gun suffices. Kleck's numbers about gun use in defense and the CDC numbers of people shot will committing a crime prove that. So does the NRA's Armed Citizen column, and the Stakeout NYC experience.

Then I guess no one should have a defensive gun. Not everyone is a Navy SEAL after all.

Seriously though, if you're going to keep a gun as a "bluff" then you might as well not even have one. If you pull one, then it better be time to use it.

A .22 is better than nothing, but if the attacker is on drugs, or just really determined, then it will probably just make him mad.

She's not a gun lover or a hunter, probably has never even held one, much less shot one.

She says that she grew up around guns (keyword "around"), but hasn't shot one in a while. I plan to change that before we start making purchasing decisions.

 

[gotigers]

This thread has gone off the tracks. Some real silly stuff.

 

[monotonous_iterancy]

This thread has gone off the tracks. Some real silly stuff.

It didn't take long really. I mean, birdshot, .22lr. Is there anything that you find sillier?

I still think this thread has worth. As we move along the process of deciding I'll still ask questions. I'm probably going to go scope out local options ahead of time today and see what meets the criteria.

 

[Doug S]

Just to share another experience, I also owned a new Winchester 357 carbine. I hated it. Jammed easily. I've not owned, but I have done a fair amount of shooting with, and read that the Marlin pistol caliber leverguns are more reliable because they were designed around the pistol cartridge, whereas the most Winchester models (except the 92? I think is the model, and that's not a budget gun) are just their regular rifle action/receiver tweaked to work with the pistol cartridges. Maybe my experience is not the norm, but again, I got rid of it because I got tired of having to fight to clear the jams, and I would not recommend it for an inexperienced new gun owner.

I've had many, mostly multiples + of AR, AK, SKS, 357 lever action, 9mm semi-auto carbine, USGI M1Carbine, bolt action carbines. Probably some others that I'm forgetting. Most of them were nice, some better than others, some what I'd consider budget guns, others not. With that said, if I were honestly to recommend what I've since found to be a decent, "cheap", reliable "BUDGET" longarm (sorry, not a rifle), it would be a Maverick 88 12 gauge, BUT I know my 5ft 3in wife can't handle it (when shouldered, she can't reach the trigger, but even if she could, the recoil would be too much for her). So, I wouldn't recommend it for a young girl who may be physically too small, or inexperienced for such a gun.

So, if I were really pressed to recommend a "budget" home defense rifle for a young female, with not alot of money, and maybe even less experience with firearms, I guess I'd probably recommend a Ruger 10-22. Find what ammo it functions most reliably with, and maybe pick up a reliable large capacity magazine. Easy and cheap (not to mention fun) to do alot of practice with (and to find out what works the best with it). In my experience, reliable even with extended aftermarket magazines. Not the ideal caliber (and I don't think 22lr is at it's best in a semiauto), but I think a person like your friend could do worse.

 

[Panzercat]

I just looked it up. It does seem to be a better carbine choice.

I'll save you some time, effort and pain. Unless you happen across one accidentally, you might as well be hunting leprechauns and unicorns... Or be willing to pay the gouge prices they're being sold for, since those are the only people Keltec can seem to get their product to. I've kind of written them off for the time being, personally.

Other than that's it's a pretty fun little carbine.

 

[readyeddy]

I agree with Doug S.

 

[monotonous_iterancy]

Well, I went and looked at some stuff. Turns out the lgs is closed today, so, not wanting to go away totally empty handed, I went to Wal-Mart to see if they had anything.

They had both the Pardner Protector and the Remington 870, so I was able to handle both of them. I already knew that the Pardner Protector was an 870 clone, and it is. It's almost the same exact gun, except that it's heavier, and probably not fit as well, because it racks considerably louder.

The Pardner was $179, the Remington was $347. Is the weight a big consideration? I think the heavier weight could soak up the recoil, but is lighter better for a defensive situation?

There was also a Mossberg 930 tactical, semi-auto. At $499 it's a bit out of my price range, but it seemed pretty cool. It looked like it had a flash hider on it, which in low light is a very good thing.

As for pistol caliber carbines, all they had was a Beretta CX4 storm in 9mm. Way to expensive for me at $849. Also, when I asked about it by name, the person behind the counter pointed to the ARs, and I had to direct her to it.

I then asked if they "had any cheap pistol caliber carbines".

"In 12 gauge?"

 

[back40]

not much advantage to the extra weight other than absorbing some of the recoil as you mentioned. if the recoil is bearable and controllable, most would prefer the lighter weight for easier manipulation.

glad to see you aren't buying the .22 and birdshot nonsense.