Budget home defense rifle

[dprice3844444]

20 gauge would be the best if not using a hand gun.remember the psychological sound of the slide racking itself,might discourage further intrusion..you want to put an intruder down fast,not piss him off with a 22. #4 buck would work well.

the pardner will work fine.if you have to give it up,you only lost 200 bucks.

 

[Panzercat]

I then asked if they "had any cheap pistol caliber carbines".

"In 12 gauge?"

That hurts the brain. Really. :banghead:

I like to use my wife as a reference since she has no love for firearms as a hobby, but she absolutely hated my 12g mossy. Far too much recoil to ever be comfortable with, partially because she's light herself. I had serious doubts she would ever use it in a HD scenario, so I dumped it for something else. Since yours is a firefighter, things may be different, but shotties are so universally availible that you can probably walk over to any indoor range for a test drive. I agree with the shotgun as a choice and there's nothing wrong with Pardner... I just urge caution in the selection of a 12 gauge.

 

[monotonous_iterancy]

I agree with the shotgun as a choice and there's nothing wrong with Pardner... I just urge caution in the selection of a 12 gauge.

That's part of my caution. I only have a sporting 20 gauge. Are there low-recoil shells that are effective?

 

[Averageman]

You can find used Remington 870's locally at pawn shope for $150, I don't think there is a more logical or economical answer for you than that.
I would imagine that a 20 gauge might even be less expensive than a 12, but probobly more rare too.

 

[denton]

The OP is carefully weighing options, and reasoning through what would likely be best. That's a good way to go at it.

Bartholomew Roberts gave us a good dissertation on the effects of birdshot, possibly drawing from this video. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yIfilArIHlY It's worth your time to watch. It will give more perspective than anything any of us have to say.

Most people who are shot with handguns survive. The best stats I can find say that about 6 out of 7 live.

If you are attacked, and pull out a firearm, the best stats I can find say that 93% of the time your attacker will flee. So only 7% of the time does it even matter much what kind of firearm you have.

I wouldn't be too hasty to apply the 12" rule for metallic cartridges to shotguns. The mechanisms involved are quite different.

Statistically, few people who are shot at close range by a shotgun survive. I had the actual percentage, but it has escaped me. The bottom line is that at close range, shotguns are much more deadly than handguns, as a general rule.

Number 8 shot is probably the least desirable shotgun load, and even that will punch a hole the size of a man's fist, 4-5" deep, in an attacker's abdomen at across-the-room ranges. Such a wound will get your attacker thinking about something besides harming you. He's going to ground, and is not getting up. Graduate to #4 to #6 pheasant shot, and it's much more effective. (#6 will blow the snot out of two layers of sheetrock, as in an apartment wall. I had a friend who experimentally determined this.)

Would I rather have #4 buck? Or 00? You bet. There is no doubt that they are better than birdshot. Even at 30 yards, those are devastating loads. But at close range, even lowly birdshot is more protection than some people realize.

 

[monotonous_iterancy]

I wouldn't be too hasty to apply the 12" rule for metallic cartridges to shotguns.

Isn't the 12" rule also accounting for things like winter clothing and tough fabrics like leather? I'm not sure that it means that you need 12" of actual penetration to stop a determined attacker.

 

[JShirley]

Denton, I believe you are incorrect about the terminal ballistics of #8 shot, both regarding size and depth. To put this in perspective, I believe a #6 round across the room will penetrate to that depth, but only half that width.

John

 

[allaroundhunter]

That's part of my caution. I only have a sporting 20 gauge. Are there low-recoil shells that are effective?

I like the new Hevi Duty defensive loads from Hevi Shot. I am now using their #4 buckshot load. It is low recoil and "frangible". Not sure quite how it is frangible, but because they use different metals for their shot, I suppose it is possible.

Low recoil stuff does help a little, and combine it with a limbsaver and she might be okay.

 

[Float Pilot]

While it is far from optimal there is a cheaper way to go.

Buy a $125 used Ruger 10-22 at a moving sale.
But a couple 20 round magazines.
Spend $50 on some good hollow point ammo.

Practice like crazy at reasonable ranges.

While it will not stop the Hulk, most thugs leave when they see any gun.... the rest leave once the first two or three 22 caliber holes appear in the first target.

I would be much more afraid of somebody with a good 22 who really knows how to shoot than any gun store commando with a $2,000 battle rifle.

 

[monotonous_iterancy]

Buy a $125 used Ruger 10-22 at a moving sale.
But a couple 20 round magazines.
Spend $50 on some good hollow point ammo.

I've heard that .22 hollowpoints don't expand well, or don't penetrate very far. I have read though that either CCI mini-mags, or CCI stingers are the best defensive .22lr rounds. I don't know if it's true, but I don't doubt it. Can a 10-22 fire really hot loads like that? Will it cycle correctly?

 

[back40]

i guess it just different strokes for different folks but...

i just don't agree with the thinking along the lines of "most thugs will leave at the first sight of a gun", or "a couple .22 holes will make them think twice".

in my mind you only ever resort to a firearm when absolutely necessary, and if you pull one you had better be prepared to use it to stop the attack with certainty. use enough gun.

if the .22 is the only thing you have, it's better than a pointed stick. but if you can afford, handle and have available something of better stopping power...why would you settle for a .22 on the premise or false hope that your attacker won't be very determined? sounds like a poor bet to make when one's life is possibly at stake.

 

[allaroundhunter]

I've heard that .22 hollowpoints don't expand well, or don't penetrate very far. I have read though that either CCI mini-mags, or CCI stingers are the best defensive .22lr rounds. I don't know if it's true, but I don't doubt it. Can a 10-22 fire really hot loads like that? Will it cycle correctly?

The problem with most .22s is that they aren't fed ammo that is hot enough. I have never found a .22 that had a problem due to ammo that was loaded "too hot". The stingers and mini mags are great, and will definitely cycle the 10/22. I would only run hot loads in a defensive rimfire, otherwise you are asking for trouble.

 

[back40]

I would be much more afraid of somebody with a good 22 who really knows how to shoot than any gun store commando with a $2,000 battle rifle.

as would i. but most thugs would have no idea whether their prey "knows how to shoot" or not. so a peashooter, whether in capable hands or not, wouldn't be very intimidating. not to mention, that i still contend that intimidation should not be the driving force behind deploying a firearm in self defense. do you want to deter the threat? yes. do you count on it? no.

 

[Kayaker 1960]

Get a shotgun..

Get a cheap 20 gauge pump. 12 gauge has too much recoil for most girls. I have a Maverick pump. It works just fine and they are cheap.

 

[Float Pilot]

as would i. but most thugs would have no idea whether their prey "knows how to shoot" or not.

I would have to disagree with that. I spent 20 years in law enforcement and most thugs have a good sense for who to leave alone.

They can tell from your stance, eye contact and attitude whether you are going to kill them or not.

Over the years that sense they have kept me from having to shoot a few of them and after the fact they always made mention that they complied immediately because I looked like I was hoping I could shoot them.

Personally I use a M-1100 12 gauge riot gun as the house gun. 00 Buck 2 3/4 inch loads.
But my house does not have any others nearby and I plan on it over-penetrating.

I was involved in one shooting where one of my 45acp Black Talon HPs went right through 1/2 sheet rock, through 6 inches of fiberglass insulation, clipped a 2x6 wall stud and then went right through some doubled T-111 plywood siding. ( from a Colt Commander) The bullet was never found as it then whistled right down the middle of a street.

Pistol bullets go right through house walls. They would be even worse from a carbine.

I have used 12 gauge shot-bag rounds from an M-870. With proper shot placement they take the fight out of whomever they smack. But that takes us back to training and close-in weapons proficiency.

 

[Panzercat]

Most people who are shot with handguns survive. The best stats I can find say that about 6 out of 7 live.

If you are attacked, and pull out a firearm, the best stats I can find say that 93% of the time your attacker will flee. So only 7% of the time does it even matter much what kind of firearm you have.

I do wonder how much of that (6 of 7 live) statistic is because they recieve immedite medical attention. Not to be contensous, just curious. I would also wonder what the fractional breakdown is as to whether the attack was nuetralized (by whatever means) versus the fatal outcome that number represents. I've learned over the years generalized figures only tell part of the story.

 

[back40]

the fact that you were law enforcement and they knew you were trained to some extent likely had a role in their apprehension. a thug intent on doing someone harm faced with a scared female armed with a .22 is a different story.

 

[monotonous_iterancy]

Pistol bullets go right through house walls. They would be even worse from a carbine.

But doesn't buckshot go right through house walls too?

 

[denton]

they complied immediately because I looked like I was hoping I could shoot them.

I don't need a gun. Just teach me that look!

It's not something I've experimented with, but the people that I respect, and who have, say that the best 22 ammo for killing larger animals is the CCI Velocitor. The MV is around 1400 FPS, and I believe they use a better quality bullet. They seem to outperform Stingers and other super HV ammo, which surprises me a little.

Any of the following will work for the described application:

Ruger 10/22 loaded with Velocitors.
Break action single shot 20 or 12 gauge, loaded with your choice of projectiles (~$100).
Good used pump action 12 or 20 gauge (used 870 ~$250).
Mosin M44 or M38 (blind them with muzzle flash, too).
Henry lever action 22 loaded with Velocitors.
Used 30-30 lever action.
Used Savage/Stevens bolt action 30-30 (under $200).
Yugo Mauser (~$225).
NEF Handi Rifle/H&R in any big game or big bore pistol chambering (not much need for a follow up shot if you connect).

Unfortunately, the $175 SKS rifles are long gone, along with the $.08 ammo. The SKS is an intimidating weapon. Intimidation is better than ventilation.

Some of these will work better than others. Some allow much faster follow up shots than others. Some are also fun to take to the range and enjoy. But all will do a lot to improve your chances of survival. None will guarantee your survival.

 

[monotonous_iterancy]

30-30 lever actions, Mosins, Mausers, SKS rifles...we are talking about an apartment here.

 

[denton]

I do wonder how much of that (6 of 7 live) statistic is because they recieve immedite medical attention. Not to be contensous, just curious. I would also wonder what the fractional breakdown is as to whether the attack was nuetralized (by whatever means) versus the fatal outcome that number represents. I've learned over the years generalized figures only tell part of the story.

Indeed.

I suspect a great many handgun victims live in areas that have good trauma centers, and that see a lot of gunshot wounds.

There is a similar problem with the shotgun fatality statistics. Were they shot with #8, or with #4 buck? The stats say that most people shot at close range with a shotgun die quickly. But there are surely other variables at work.

Morbid topic.

 

[allaroundhunter]

But doesn't buckshot go right through house walls too?

00, yes. The best round you can get if you want a decent stopper AND least penetration is the .223/5.56

 

[denton]

30-30 lever actions, Mosins, Mausers, SKS rifles...we are talking about an apartment here.

LOL...

Well, yes.

You did ask for long guns, no?

Handguns, rifles, and shotguns loaded with #4 buck or larger all penetrate apartment walls quite handily. If you pass the slug through the bad guy before it gets to the wall, overpenetration is less of a problem.

 

[monotonous_iterancy]

The best round you can get if you want a decent stopper AND least penetration is the .223/5.56

Unfortunately, I don't know of anything that shoots it besides ARs and mini-14s. Not semi-auto anyway, and those are way too expensive.

Do they make .223/5.56 lever actions?

 

[denton]

H&R/NEF do make a single shot break-action in 223 Rem/5.56. It's an inexpensive firearm. I'd use expanding bullets in it, if that's what you choose.