Budget home defense rifle

[JShirley]

Congrats on hitting the range. That and learning safe gun handling are the first steps for defensive firearm.

 

[Ceemack]

No .22s for self-defense. Too little power and too big a chance of a misfire.

No birdshot. It doesn't have enough penetration to stop a really determined assailant. Defensive shotguns get fed 00 buck, period.

No pistol-grip shotguns. To hard to operate, too hard to hit with, and no way to use it for fun. And at 6'6" and 300+, I wouldn't be too keen on the recoil myself.

The SKS is a nice thought, but it's probably a bit clunky and muzzle-heavy for a lady.

A Hi-Point carbine is a pretty good solution. Recoil is light, and she can have fun plinking with it. Practice is good.

A shotgun will be the most effective weapon if she ever has to use it. Remington makes a "junior" version of their compact-model 870. It comes in 20 gauge with a 12" length of pull and a 21" barrel. Cops love the 870 for a reason, and she can use it for skeet and hand-thrown trap. Remington sells a pre-fitted R3 recoil pad for some of their synthetic-stocked models, and if they make one to fit this model it would be a good addition. The R3 is more effective than the stock pad.

Another option I haven't heard mentioned too much would be a 20-gauge coach gun. Simple manual of arms, very effective, and a better bet than a single-shot. You'd want one with internal hammers and a good recoil pad. You may need to have the stock cut down a little and a recoil pad custom-fitted.

 

[monotonous_iterancy]

Defensive shotguns get fed 00 buck, period.

What's wrong with #4, #3, #2, lead BB shot, etc.? I told her that if we got a 12 gauge, we'd find a load that worked for her. I realize now that I could also get a recoil pad if we need to.

The SKS is a nice thought, but it's probably a bit clunky and muzzle-heavy for a lady.

I think the fact that mine pinched her shoulder the first few times and left marks turned her off it. I hope it doesn't turn her off the idea of rifles entirely. I told her "Well, it's a rifle firing rifle rounds, and besides, it's a cheap Chinese made gun. A pistol caliber carbine wouldn't be anything like it."

 

[Warp]

What's wrong with #4, #3, #2, lead BB shot, etc.? I told her that if we got a 12 gauge, we'd find a load that worked for her. I realize now that I could also get a recoil pad if we need to.

There are plenty of quality reduced recoil/managed recoil 00 and #1 buck loads out there. My favorite is the Federal PD/LE series with flight control wad. PD132 or LE132 is the low recoil version, available in 00 and #1.

You could also consider a Knoxx spec ops recoil reducing stock. It WORKS.

 

[MattShlock]

Com'on people, no shotguns despite your page after page of members going there. You've been told -- you don't know what you're talking about and this is a rifle thread!

 

[LeonCarr]

What Warp just said.

There are Low Recoil/Reduced Recoil 00 Buckshot loads on the market today with the felt recoil of birdshot loads.

I am also a big fan of the LE132 Federal Flitecontrol 00 Buckshot.

There is also Reduced Recoil Rifle Ammunition available. Ok, now it is a Rifle post .

Just my .02,
LeonCarr

 

[monotonous_iterancy]

you don't know what you're talking about and this is a rifle thread!

This only started as a rifle thread because of my mistaken beliefs about shotguns. It's a general long gun thread.

Also, isn't 00 buck really big on penetration or should I not worry about that?

There are Low Recoil/Reduced Recoil 00 Buckshot loads on the market today with the felt recoil of birdshot loads.

That's awesome. What if we go 20 gauge?

 

[LeonCarr]

The 20 Gauge shotgun delivers 75% of the payload of a 12 Gauge with about 50% less felt recoil. It will stop a fight...the energy generated by a single 20 Gauge round at the muzzle is equivalent to two .44 Magnum rounds.

#3 or #2 Buckshot is generally what is available in 20 Gauge, and if the fight goes outside the house 3/4 Ounce Foster or Brenneke Slugs will work to 65-75 yards.

Just my .02,
LeonCarr

 

[monotonous_iterancy]

So a 20 gauge seems like a good option. Do they make affordable tactical 20 gauges? It would be awesome to have something like an NEF Pardner protector in 20 gauge.

 

[LeonCarr]

Yes they do...many different models of the Remington 870, Mossberg 500, and several of the imports are available in a Tactical type 20 Gauge.

I would recommend one of the Remington 870 Youth/Compact models or one of the Mossberg 500 Bantam models.

Just my .02,
LeonCarr

 

[lhartman89]

There is also the Maverick 88 by Mossberg in 20ga if you can find it. It looks like all they make is the field version with a 28" barrel I think which it would be better to have an 18.5" barrel.

 

[monotonous_iterancy]

Maybe it would be good to try and find a Winchester 1300 defender, since it's pretty much a shorter version of what we shot. Are they hard to find?

 

[Centurian22]

According to the mossberg page, they do offer the Maverick 88, in 20ga, in 18.5" barrels.

http://www.mossberg.com/product/shotguns-pump-action-maverick-88-special-purpose/31023

I have seen the field model sell for $199 at my local Walmart in stock just weeks ago. The maverick 88 is interchangeable with mossberg 500 barrels (and most other parts) as long as it isn't the extended tube version (20" long and 8shots I believe). So even if you can't find a Mav88 in stock with the shorter barrel, you can always buy one separate like this one:

http://item.mobileweb.ebay.com/viewitem?index=0&sbk=1&nav=SEARCH&itemId=141013860490


$199+$165= $364 (plus taxes/shipping) and then she has a shotgun for both home defense / practice as well as clay shooting or hunting if she would so choose. Or sell the long barrel off if there is NO chance she would be interested in its use (which I would doubt based on what you've told us).

 

[MattShlock]

So a 20 gauge seems like a good option. Do they make affordable tactical 20 gauges? It would be awesome to have something like an NEF Pardner protector in 20 gauge.

Let me refer you back to post #76...
Hope she enjoys it!

 

[JShirley]

00 buck penetrates about 22" in tissue. For comparison, many folks claim they would never use a slug for HD because of overpenetration...but common Foster slugs (the cheapest ones) penetrate about 18" in tissue.

Unfortunately, misinformation and urban legends are at least as common in the gun community as elsewhere. There's a similar issue with using .223 for HD. Many shooters claim they will never use any rifle for HD because of concern for their neighbors, but almost any .223 load will penetrate at least 5" or more less in tissue than the 00 buck many of the "no rifles for home defense!!!1!" crowd suggest. Expanding .223 is even less penetrative, comparatively, in sheetrock than 00 buck OR pistol calibers.

John

 

[MistWolf]

monotonous_iterancy, how in the hell did you get so stuck on using a shotgun? Greater recoil, reduced ammo capacity, less precision of shot placement, reduced rate of fire, no practical gain in terminal performance.

Beware of "economy" shotguns, especially pumps. Their actions tend to be rough. That's bad when running a pump because the shooter is more likely to short stroke a rough feeling pump than a smooth one. There's frugal and there is cheap. Frugal is money wisely spent. Cheap is foolish and ain't no bargain when it comes to safety gear.

As far as pistol caliber carbines go, don't be surprised if they kick harder than you expect

 

[monotonous_iterancy]

I got stuck on shotguns because people keep making them sound like the best thing since sliced bread. Plus, they're very inexpensive, effective, and she liked my 20 gauge. She didn't like my SKS much, I think because she didn't shoulder it right the first few times. It's not even a good representation of the rifles she'd be considering, but it's all I had.

What would you recommend?

 

[MistWolf]

I know a Colt 6920 is more expensive, but they can be found at many Walmarts around the country. Go put one on layaway. Why this rifle? Because it's light, handy, easy to shoot, easy to solve problems (IE, reload, clear malfunctions) has good terminal performance, reduced risk of over penetration, low recoil, good capacity, easy to train with and the length of pull is adjustable to the shooter. Plus you can invest in a CMMG 22 rimfire adapter and shoot cheap.

View attachment 671246

While my carbine is a PSA, not a Colt, it will give you a basic idea of what a good HD AR looks like. I like my PSA. The reason I recommend the Colt is because it's ready to shoot right out of the box. I built my PSA from a kit, not something I'd suggest for someone with little firearms experience

View attachment 671247

You don't need the light or optic sight right away, but I'd put them on my "Will Get" list. The sling is a holster for your rifle.

If you are serious about getting a firearm for personal protection, spend a little extra and get the Colt AR. It will last you a lifetime and is about the best choice there is. I also recommend getting a Glock 9mm or a Walther PPQ 9mm. Both are great handguns and work well right out of the box. My preference is the Walther PPQ but it's easier to get mags and holsters for the Glock. I also recommend you and your girl take a good class.

As you gain more knowledge and experience with firearms and shooting, you can re-visit other options. But for now, The Colt 6920 and the Glock is the best way to get started because you're not going to find much better options

 

[monotonous_iterancy]

An AR would be great, but I asked her about layaway, and if I remember correctly, she didn't like the idea.

 

[MistWolf]

*shrugs* It's silly to settle for something less over such a trivial thing. I buy firearms on layaway all the time. I've gotten some very fine ones that way

 

[AKElroy]

Maybe it would be good to try and find a Winchester 1300 defender, since it's pretty much a shorter version of what we shot. Are they hard to find?

A great choice if you can find one. You will need to go to one of the auction sites, but you should pay less than $300. I prefer it to the 870 as it comes with a nicely polished chamber that avoids the fail to extract issues that seem to plague the 870. It is a little lighter with an aluminum receiver, but it is butter smooth. There are not as many tactical options for the Winchester, but who cares about that crap. LOP is over 13"' so it may be difficult for her to shoulder. She should try it first.

 

[JShirley]

I got stuck on shotguns because people keep making them sound like the best thing since sliced bread. Plus, they're very inexpensive, effective, and she liked my 20 gauge.

They're nowhere near the best thing since sliced bread. Shotguns are especially good for home defense for two groups of people:

1) People who don't own anything else that would make a good choice (that anything else would include high-power rifles for which lightweight varmint rounds can be found- any high-power rifle with lightweight expanding bullets will decisively stop a human threat at close range, while offering minimal penetration).

2) People who already shoot shotguns for sport so much that their skill set with a shotgun is already very highly developed.

Let's put this into perspective. Dave McCracken, the patriarch of the fighting 12 gauge shotgun here and at TFL, was building an AR15 when cancer took him much too soon.

Pistol caliber carbines, however- when the calibers are the service calibers of 9x19mm, .40 S&W, and .45 ACP- have their own significant disadvantages. Most significant is overpenetration, and people who think simplistically automatically seem to equate larger cartridge cases with additional penetration in structure, which is frequently not the case. In most cases, high-speed, light-for-caliber projectiles tend to fragment much more readily than slower, heavier-for-caliber (including handgun) ones.

You're going to have a hard time finding an "ideal" HD piece and still being inexpensive. Some downsides>

PCC: overpenetrative in structure.
Shotgun: heavy recoil. Overpenetrative with 00, and underpenetrative with birdshot (my suggestion of BB is still not enough penetration for most experts, and then the other "any shotgun shell will work" extreme screams at me for saying suggesting light birdshot is reckless ).
AR15 and similar: high cost.
Single-shot: reload speed.
.22LR Rifle: lacking in stopping power per round.

So, your friend has to pick the liability she thinks she can most live with. The truth is, the biggest difference is not between any of these choices, it's between having a firearm and not having one. Even a .22 single-shot could be the difference between life and death, even though it's just about the last firearm I'd suggest for HD (just after a pistol-gripped 12 gauge shotgun).

If your friend is willing to practice with it, a 20 gauge loaded with Foster slugs or 0 or #1 buckshot should work fairly well, though all of these will recoil more than that SKS.

Hope that helps.

John

 

[LeonCarr]

Growing up, I heard the term "Shotgun Dead" almost everyday during deer season, even when the deer was killed with a rifle. If the hunted missed the buck of the century, some of them would say, "If I woulda had a shotgun I woulda hit him".

I have never heard someone use the term "Rifle Dead" or "Pistol Dead", but have heard many many folks use the term "Shotgun Dead".

Shotguns are recommended by many on this thread because they work. 00 Buckshot is recommened by many on this thread because it works, and has worked since the US Postal Service Train Guards started using it in their 10 Gauge Double Barrel shotguns in the 1880s. It worked for Doc Holliday right down the street from OK Corral when we emptied both barrels of his cut down Greener 10 Gauge into Tom McLaury and Tom McLaury was the only one who did not return fire at the Earps and Doc Holliday.

For over 100 years shotguns loaded with 00 Buckshot have worked, and they will still work today.

Just my .02,
LeonCarr

 

[JShirley]

"If I woulda had a shotgun I woulda hit him".

So your whole point is actually about marksmanship.

You want to talk history? Let's do that. For a very long time, the most common longarm in US history was an unrifled piece that could fire shot or slugs. It was literally incapable of accurate fire at even 100 paces. Accurate rifles were not good military pieces because they were much more expensive, and took several times as long to reload. They were also more delicate. Them's the facts- believe 'em or don't. Now, practical experience.

I grew up using a shotgun. I've killed almost all of my small game with a shotgun, and I shot my first deer with a shotgun.

I have seen the effects of shotguns on deer, and I've seen the effects of rifle, sometimes during periods where I literally lived in the woods for months at a time. I have also seen the effects of shotgun- including buckshot and slugs- on pests and hogs. Given the choice, I'll take a rifle every damn time.

 

[Doug S]

So, your friend has to pick the liability she thinks she can most live with. The truth is, the biggest difference is not between any of these choices, it's between having a firearm and not having one...

And this is the absolute best line of this entire thread, because it very simply and succinctly sums up the entire conversation into a very simple truth. Once a new gun owner gets over this hump, that can start to relax, stop worrying so much about hardware, and get focused on doing what they can with what they've got.

I was 19 when I moved out on my own. Between the ages of 19 & 27 all I had for "home/self defense" was the Sears single shot 20 gauge I had used for hunting while growing up. Ammo, whatever hunting shotshells I had laying around from squirrel season. Somehow I survived. I didn't realize I was undergunned until I started reading the forums ;-) (actually it was after I got married and we had our first child that I started to think more seriously about upgrading the old 20 gauge). And truth be told, after going through the process mentioned by J. Shirley above, I think most anyone would be well served throughout their lives for most situations they realistically might encounter with either a reliable 9mm semi-auto, or a quality 38/357revolver. Everything else is an extra.