Budget home defense rifle
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monotonous_iterancy
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Sure, plenty of people have died from .22s. But we're not looking to kill anyone, we're looking to stop them from killing us, plain and simple. A .22 might stop them, but it's not as likely as other calibers.
Then again, I suppose there's a lot of variables. There have been defensive shooting with .22s that were 1 shot stops, and there was a home invasion a few months ago where the intruder was hit 5 times with a .38 special and ran away under his own power.
exactly. you can kill someone with a ball point pen, but it's not an ideal self defense tool.
so long as your friend is capable, choose something with ideal stopping power without going overboard.
after 8 pages, you have plenty of opinions and suggestions. you've been asking the right questions, and seem to have a good grasp on things. best of luck and let us know when you make some decisions.
denton
Member
There will be something you don't like about all the alternatives you can find. The more you restrict the options with issues like price, or not wanting to buy a handgun, the more objectionable features your best available choice will have.
There are many choices that will cover the situation adequately, but none that will cover it perfectly and at the price point you want, and with the restriction that you don't want a handgun.
There are many choices that will cover the situation adequately, but none that will cover it perfectly and at the price point you want, and with the restriction that you don't want a handgun.
peacemaker45
Member
One of the name brand pump action shotguns, such as a Mossberg 500, or Remington 870, in 12 gauge, fitted with a short barrel. You can buy it short, or cut down a long one. Next, cut the stock down so that it fits her, and install a quality recoil pad, such as a limb saver or pachmayr decelerator. For practice, start out with Winchester's "Low Noise, Low Recoil," target loads. When she has the hang of things, she can move up in power. For serious use, they make reduced recoil buck shot loads.
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monotonous_iterancy
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A recoil pad, why didn't I think of that? What do you mean by cutting the stock down, and how?
Also, when you cut down a long barrel, do you re-attach a bead, or do you just point and shoot?
allaroundhunter
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You don't have to cut down the barrel... Remington has several 870 offerings with the minimum legal length (without a tax stamp) of 18.5".
Barry the Bear
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Marlin 336 in .30-30 winchester
Onward Allusion
Member
Not commonly known fact - 22LR HV round from a 16" barrel ~= 38 Special target/practice/LNR round from a 2" barrel
peacemaker45
Member
A stock that's too long will make the gun difficult to handle and worsen the recoil considerably. The problem is that, with the exception of a few youth models, most long guns are built with large adult males in mind. At 6'1 and 230 lbs, I'm by no means small, yet I've had a number of factory guns that were too long for me. If she's half a foot shorter, her stock should be shorter as well.
As for the how, the easiest way is to buy one of the aforementioned youth models to begin with. That may be close. However, there are many times more standard configuration guns in the world, and deals can be had on used examples. If you wind up with one of these, the second easiest method is to find a friendly local gun shop, and get their gunsmith to do the work. My favorite local guy will cut a stock and install a pad for $30, plus the pad.
If you decide to do it yourself, first determine your goal length of pull, subtract from that the thickness of your chosen pad, saw off the excess, grind the new pad to fit, and screw it on.
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As for the how, the easiest way is to buy one of the aforementioned youth models to begin with. That may be close. However, there are many times more standard configuration guns in the world, and deals can be had on used examples. If you wind up with one of these, the second easiest method is to find a friendly local gun shop, and get their gunsmith to do the work. My favorite local guy will cut a stock and install a pad for $30, plus the pad.
If you decide to do it yourself, first determine your goal length of pull, subtract from that the thickness of your chosen pad, saw off the excess, grind the new pad to fit, and screw it on.
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monotonous_iterancy
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I know they do. But it might be cheaper to buy a longer shotgun and shorten it to 19 or 18.5 inches. It gives me more options. So I'm wondering if you need to put an aftermarket bead or something on a cut-down shotgun.
justice06rr
Member
Mossberg500 with pistol grip. Simple, affordable, and effective. 7+1 rounds of 12gauge.
Sells for $299 new in my LGS, cheaper if you find it used. Ammo is plentiful and have many options if you are concerned with recoil and penetration. Have her practice with it often.
Sells for $299 new in my LGS, cheaper if you find it used. Ammo is plentiful and have many options if you are concerned with recoil and penetration. Have her practice with it often.
peacemaker45
Member
I'd put a bead on it. Not strictly necessary for across the room shooting, but better to have it, especially for practicing.
BTW, here's a clip of a slim young lady, not over 5'7, and 17 at the time the vid was made, showing what can be done with a 12 gauge pump that fits, with some practice. Note that the gun is empty when she picks it up.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xzsuxGJIW1Y&feature=youtube_gdata_player
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BTW, here's a clip of a slim young lady, not over 5'7, and 17 at the time the vid was made, showing what can be done with a 12 gauge pump that fits, with some practice. Note that the gun is empty when she picks it up.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xzsuxGJIW1Y&feature=youtube_gdata_player
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monotonous_iterancy
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That's pretty impressive. Personally, I think that half the challenge of recoil is your mind, the other half is proper stance. For example, I once shot my Mosin-Nagant and it banged my shoulder up so that I could feel it for a few days. Because of that, I developed a flinch with that gun because I anticipated the recoil. Yet when I shoot it again, and hold it firmly, it doesn't bother me. Mind over matter. And proper stance.
Go to Walmart and see if they have a Colt 6920 (AR-15) and put it on layaway. It's more than you want to spend but it's a good, reliable rifle right out of the box. Far less recoil than a 12 gauge, holds more ammo and shot can easily be placed with precision.
Again, I know it's more than you want to spend, but layaway is an option. Stop pussy footing around and get set your girl up right
Again, I know it's more than you want to spend, but layaway is an option. Stop pussy footing around and get set your girl up right
theblakester
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Given the guidelines of the OP, I think u were in the right direction with a hi point pistol caliber carbine. They're cheap, they have light recoil, And they're easy to use (semi auto, no pumping necessary). Is she going to realistically be able/willing to practice with a shotgun? will the recoil scare her before she even learns to work a pump action shotgun? Even in 20 gauge, when u have a shorter barrel and stock it is going to be lighter in weight, which is good for control, but bad for recoil. If she is not a shooter, then starting her off with a heavy recoiling gun might scare her away from practicing with it. One of those hi point carbines will not kick much at all on her shoulder and she can have fun practicing with it.
Maybe take her somewhere that she can rent a shotgun first and try it out, bc IF, she can handle the recoil well, then a semi auto 20 gauge may be a good route to take (gas operated semi auto shotgun will also help to reduce recoil) although a pump will be cheaper and easier to maintain.
For me or you, I would definitely suggest a shotgun, but for a smaller, inexperienced woman, on a budget, a hi point carbine may be a better option. I'm a huge shotgun advocate for home defense generally, but the way my girlfriend is, I know giving her a shotgun at the range is just going to scare her from the idea of shooting in general (unfortunately--- baby steps, maybe one day I'll get her there).
Take her to a range that rents different types of guns and see what she's most comfortable with. Because that's what she'll be most willing to return to the range with and practice with and get most proficient with.
Maybe take her somewhere that she can rent a shotgun first and try it out, bc IF, she can handle the recoil well, then a semi auto 20 gauge may be a good route to take (gas operated semi auto shotgun will also help to reduce recoil) although a pump will be cheaper and easier to maintain.
For me or you, I would definitely suggest a shotgun, but for a smaller, inexperienced woman, on a budget, a hi point carbine may be a better option. I'm a huge shotgun advocate for home defense generally, but the way my girlfriend is, I know giving her a shotgun at the range is just going to scare her from the idea of shooting in general (unfortunately--- baby steps, maybe one day I'll get her there).
Take her to a range that rents different types of guns and see what she's most comfortable with. Because that's what she'll be most willing to return to the range with and practice with and get most proficient with.
This is a long thread, certainly. Since a few people keep making especially bad suggestions, let me just address those.
1: a pistol-gripped, stockless shotgun is only really useful for experts in a few specific situations. There is a current thread about PGO shotguns in the shotgun forum.
2: handguns are only great at being reactive concealable weapons. If you are not attempting to conceal it, a longarm should ALWAYS be chosen for defense. That stock gives additional control and accuracy, and even in handgun calibers, the longer barrel can add from a moderate up to almost double increase in power/velocity. The thing to remember with expanding rounds, is that usually more velocity equals less penetration because that velocity rapidly expands the bullet, transferring energy to the target and making a larger hole. It's a win-win situation for the longarm user, with the additional benefit of longer barrels being considerably quieter (though ear pro should always be donned if there's time: there are electronic muffs available now for as little as $50, and SureFire sells some sonic valve plugs for about $13). In addition, handgun choices will almost all be more expensive than good longarm choices like a used shotgun.
So, a handgun means you'll be paying more for something that may not be legal where you are, that's harder to use well, and is less effective.
John
1: a pistol-gripped, stockless shotgun is only really useful for experts in a few specific situations. There is a current thread about PGO shotguns in the shotgun forum.
2: handguns are only great at being reactive concealable weapons. If you are not attempting to conceal it, a longarm should ALWAYS be chosen for defense. That stock gives additional control and accuracy, and even in handgun calibers, the longer barrel can add from a moderate up to almost double increase in power/velocity. The thing to remember with expanding rounds, is that usually more velocity equals less penetration because that velocity rapidly expands the bullet, transferring energy to the target and making a larger hole. It's a win-win situation for the longarm user, with the additional benefit of longer barrels being considerably quieter (though ear pro should always be donned if there's time: there are electronic muffs available now for as little as $50, and SureFire sells some sonic valve plugs for about $13). In addition, handgun choices will almost all be more expensive than good longarm choices like a used shotgun.
So, a handgun means you'll be paying more for something that may not be legal where you are, that's harder to use well, and is less effective.
John
.22 LR is obviously the less than ideal defensive cartridge, but the key here is the need for a budget rifle, for a young female that does not have a lot of money nor firearms experience.
Doug S's post at #121 is addresses the relevant issues quite succinctly.
Doug S's post at #121 is addresses the relevant issues quite succinctly.
MattShlock
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Actually, it puts a lot of little itsy bitsy shallow holes that are spread out over the size of a few fists in somebody at 15 feet... What the target does next should not be left up to the target which is what "birdshot" probably allows.
This is not ideal, and I am guessing you never would have defended your own home with such unless it was only better than nothing....
LeonCarr
Member
So far IMO this thread is focusing too much on .22s and shotguns loaded with birdshot instead of focusing on a rifle/shotgun and ammunition combination that will efficiently stop a threat.
The OP's friend is a Firefighter, not a Ballerina. Most Firefighters I know, even some in their 50s and 60s are in excellent shape and the Physical Ability Test to become a fulltime Firefighter in most departments is not for the weak of heart or back. I feel that the OPs friend can easily handle the recoil of a shotgun loaded with slugs or buckshot or a centerfire rifle. Her training should focus on the handling and familiarization aspect of the particular firearm, not the "Oh, it might hurt her" aspect.
Mat, not doormat - Lots of good points in your last three posts, especially the fitting of the shotgun and the shortening of the stock and barrel. Good Job.
Just my .02,
LeonCarr
The OP's friend is a Firefighter, not a Ballerina. Most Firefighters I know, even some in their 50s and 60s are in excellent shape and the Physical Ability Test to become a fulltime Firefighter in most departments is not for the weak of heart or back. I feel that the OPs friend can easily handle the recoil of a shotgun loaded with slugs or buckshot or a centerfire rifle. Her training should focus on the handling and familiarization aspect of the particular firearm, not the "Oh, it might hurt her" aspect.
Mat, not doormat - Lots of good points in your last three posts, especially the fitting of the shotgun and the shortening of the stock and barrel. Good Job.
Just my .02,
LeonCarr
RE: Shotgun wounding
http://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?t=109958
An ounce of lead is not an ounce of lead.
http://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?t=109958
An ounce of lead is not an ounce of lead.
I don't see how you can say the above in this instance. The only thing the OP said was,
I grew up in a small town. When I think of "volunteer firefighters" it brings back memories of my 16 year old buddies (age that you could join the local VFD), and the local men from the neighborhood who stepped up, were well trained, and risked their lives to provide a lot of good volunteer service to/for the local communities. Many of them were in something less than great physical condition.
As to whether or not a person wants to train, that is their business, and I'm not going to lecture them on training (which IMO seems to have become something of a bragging right in recent years on the forums), but I don't mind providing my 2 cents on guns that might serve them well when asked the question.
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monotonous_iterancy
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Well, I took her shooting today. She liked my .22, but didn't like my SKS so much because it "kicked". This is probably because the first few times she shot it, she didn't shoulder it right and it pinched her. She did like my Winchester 1300 20 gauge. So she liked the shotgun.
We shot on someone's private range, and he let us use his Browning Buckmark. She really, really liked that. I did too, as I've never fired it before, but she really liked it. She learned more about aiming from it than from a rifle. He also let us shoot his Kimber 1911 compact. I've never shot a 1911, so it was an experience for me. I had a blast, but she didn't like it for a reason she "couldn't explain." Oh, and I learned why you shouldn't open your mouth. My mouth was open when she squeezed off a round from the Kimber...the shock wave went through the roof of my mouth. Lesson learned.
He also let me shoot his 30-06 scoped Browning A-bolt at some water jugs at 275 yards. I hit all of them, and it was a blast.
Then he let me shoot some 3 1/2 inch Magnum #5 12 gauge shells from his Browning Silver after I spoke up about the recoil of the 30-06. That shotgun kicked, a lot. I was very pleased, but she seemed to think I was crazy.
But we both had a blast. We learned that she liked the low recoil things, even though I consider an SKS pretty low recoil. She liked the idea of a handgun, and I suppose it's possible we could get one in a private sale, but I said that it has a lot of disadvantages in a real world situation that don't apply on a range.
She liked the shotgun, which is good. I told her that if she gets one, we can find a load that works for her.
I also told her that the SKS is a rifle shooting rifle rounds, and has a steel buttplate. I said that a pistol caliber rifle like a hi-point wouldn't be anything like it. To her credit though, she said that it "wasn't as bad" once she shouldered it properly. We also shot standing after that instead of benched because I said that you wouldn't feel the recoil as much. I think those first experiences have given her a negative first impression. Mind over matter.
She also said, on her own accord, that this is just the first step, and she could upgrade later in life. I agreed.
We shot on someone's private range, and he let us use his Browning Buckmark. She really, really liked that. I did too, as I've never fired it before, but she really liked it. She learned more about aiming from it than from a rifle. He also let us shoot his Kimber 1911 compact. I've never shot a 1911, so it was an experience for me. I had a blast, but she didn't like it for a reason she "couldn't explain." Oh, and I learned why you shouldn't open your mouth. My mouth was open when she squeezed off a round from the Kimber...the shock wave went through the roof of my mouth. Lesson learned.
He also let me shoot his 30-06 scoped Browning A-bolt at some water jugs at 275 yards. I hit all of them, and it was a blast.
Then he let me shoot some 3 1/2 inch Magnum #5 12 gauge shells from his Browning Silver after I spoke up about the recoil of the 30-06. That shotgun kicked, a lot. I was very pleased, but she seemed to think I was crazy.
But we both had a blast. We learned that she liked the low recoil things, even though I consider an SKS pretty low recoil. She liked the idea of a handgun, and I suppose it's possible we could get one in a private sale, but I said that it has a lot of disadvantages in a real world situation that don't apply on a range.
She liked the shotgun, which is good. I told her that if she gets one, we can find a load that works for her.
I also told her that the SKS is a rifle shooting rifle rounds, and has a steel buttplate. I said that a pistol caliber rifle like a hi-point wouldn't be anything like it. To her credit though, she said that it "wasn't as bad" once she shouldered it properly. We also shot standing after that instead of benched because I said that you wouldn't feel the recoil as much. I think those first experiences have given her a negative first impression. Mind over matter.
She also said, on her own accord, that this is just the first step, and she could upgrade later in life. I agreed.
Centurian22
Member
Awesome! Glad to hear you guys had such a great shooting day and that she was able to try lots of options. Congrats on the first step and good luck moving forward.
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