Buffalo Bore 9x18 is here

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Brown Bear 115 JHP and 120 gr JHP Silver Bear does 1,000 FPS.

I don't think it's imported any more but I still see it once in a while.
 
They do have a hollowpoint load coming out soon, 95 gr @ 1125 or so fps.
Don't know what specific bullet they plan on using though.

I really like this load with the heavier flat nose bullet. Flat nose seems to be a good compromise between penetration and damage.

The Silver Bear 115 gr does look impressive, I just can't find any.

Bear load, lol
 
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No hollow point?

Our use of a hard cast bullet, with a flat nose, can best be understood if you'll read our technical article on "The Use of Expanding Bullets in Small Defensive Cartridges," posted under the "Technical Articles" category on our home page.

http://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_list&c=60

Ammunition featuring expanding (hollow nosed and other designs) bullets can add an extra degree of lethality to typical personal protection pistols, BUT ONLY IN SOME CASES. When dealing with "small" and under-powered pistol cartridges such as 32 ACP, 380 ACP or 9X18 Makarov, it is a possibly fatal mistake (to the user) to use expanding bullets for self defense.

Expanding a projectile that is too light weight and moving too slow, can drastically reduce needed penetration.

...32 ACP, 380 ACP and 9x18 Mak ammunition lack the bullet weight and velocity to push the large frontal area of an expanded bullet very deep into heavy clothing and living mammal tissue.
 
Whatever, still prefer a good hollow point. If they load one, the XTP would be THE bullet to use. Hornady loads it, but it's wimpy.

I don't fear for my life using hollowpoint. Seems a little melodramatic there. :rolleyes: I do feel a little better about there being less potential for over-penetration, though. Hit a good guy in the restaurant and you're in for some hard time, likely. I expect the guy I shoot with it better be fearful. I would prefer the old 115 grain Silver Bear load, though, had around 12" penetration IIRC in jello. That was a good load.
 
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I've worked on three shooting cases in which .380 JHPs failed due to underpenetration. I agree with BB's sensibilities on this one, but everyone should do what makes him/her most comfortable in his/her individual situation.

On the other hand, I've never worked on a case (out of a couple dozen shootings with these rounds) in which standard .380 ball or 9x18 ball failed to penetrate adequately. Including the round that penetrated the upper arm and massive torso of a 5'5" 280-lb man. (And I've worked on one case in which a .380 ball round overpenetrated - probably the man's leg - and struck another person.)

Anyhow, thanks for the heads up, walksbyhimself. :)
 
Hard-cast lead flat points are actually quite effective in defensive loads... Especially in a lighter, slower cartridge like the 9x18. I would not hesitate to carry these in my Mak as long as they function properly.
 
Hard-cast lead flat points are actually quite effective in defensive loads... Especially in a lighter, slower cartridge like the 9x18. I would not hesitate to carry these in my Mak as long as they function properly.

+1

I think this is a unique offering that will suit quite a few people. Not everyone. But no cartridge does that.
 
Well considering what .380 ACP ammo cost, even FMJ, the Mak has it's place.

Mak FMJ ammo cost less than .380 FMJ, and this Buffalo Bore ammo cost the same as .380 JHPs, so......

Unless you reload (and I do) .380s, then the Mak actually makes sense.

Deaf
 
I've worked on three shooting cases in which .380 JHPs failed due to underpenetration. I agree with BB's sensibilities on this one, but everyone should do what makes him/her most comfortable in his/her individual situation.

On the other hand, I've never worked on a case (out of a couple dozen shootings with these rounds) in which standard .380 ball or 9x18 ball failed to penetrate adequately. Including the round that penetrated the upper arm and massive torso of a 5'5" 280-lb man. (And I've worked on one case in which a .380 ball round overpenetrated - probably the man's leg - and struck another person.)

Anyhow, thanks for the heads up, walksbyhimself. :)

Erich, I've read a few of your threads at the S&W forum, on the topic of HP vs FMJ in the smaller calibers. Your first hand experience in these cases, of what worked and what didn't is appreciated! In a world wide web of speculation, that HP is always better, it's nice to hear something other than "I believe so therefore it's true".......Real life shootings and facts are hard to disprove!

I've also read where you said the cases when 9x18Mak were used, it definitely got the job done. I assume the majority of those were with FMJ since that does seem to be most prevalent and easily acquired for the 9x18 pistols?
 
I've worked on three shooting cases in which .380 JHPs failed due to underpenetration.

Can you clarify what you mean by "failed" here?
 
+P?

Are the various Makarov pistols, or any 9x18 chambered pistol, rated for "+P" pressures?

Or, rather a better question might be: can they safely fire this +P ammo, considering that they probably didnt have SAAMI pressures in mind when they were developed?

In any case, is it safe, short and/ or long term, to fire in C&R Mak's? and other 9x18 pistols?

C-
 
The 9x18 cartridge was designed for 24,000 psi. Buffalo Bore states that they have kept the pressure lower than that maximum, and they labeled the round "+P" to call attention to the fact that this round is more powerful than the standard 9x18 cartridge. Technically, the round is not "+P".

Heavy and fast 9x18 cartridges have been offered before. It's been the general advice not to shoot a steady diet of them to save wear and tear. But at the price of the BB round I don't think anyone is going to overshoot it.
 
One of the main reasons for not having the hotter rounds imported any longer is liability. In small guns like the P64 or PA-63 they were a little hot and could cause issues. But with the real Makarov pistols, or the even sturdier CZ-82, NONE of the ammo is too hot. And as mentioned, the +P Buff is not really +P. But it is hotter than standard wolf, bear, etc... And it's fine in all the current 9x18 pistols.

As for over penetration, I would never even think twice about that VERY SLIM possibility. You are so much more likely to totally miss your target and accidentally hitting an innocent bystander than you are over penetrating and hitting an innocent bystander. And I don't believe that the consensus is: Shoot only CCI Shot shells in case you miss the bad guy. I definitely will give the benefit of the doubt to a larger, heavier, and deeper penetrating bullet than to the very slim possibility that it could over penetrate.
 
Can you clarify what you mean by "failed" here?

Failed to penetrate deeply enough to hit the vital areas that they were on a path to hit. Two (Golden Saber .380s) failed to penetrate skulls at a very short distance after penetrating light barriers and one (Hydra-Shok .380) failed to penetrate a skull from about ten yards. (While I actually have quite a bit of information on these particular shootings, I think I'll not put details up here.) I can tell you that penetration of intervening barriers (arms/hands thrown up defensively, not to mention other light cover) often appears to be required in defensive shootings. The FBI protocol's 12" penetration requirement probably arises from a recognition of this likelihood.

Hi Fastcast, thanks for the kind words. :) I don't believe that anyone has enough information to say anything definitive (although an FBI agent acquaintance tells me that that agency has never approved any .380 rounds for carry - which sort of says something), but I can report that I personally don't use JHPs in these light, slow rounds due to my concerns based on issues in these few cases I've seen.

As far as 9x18Mak JHPs, I haven't dug through everything, but right now I can't recall working on even a single 9x18 shooting with anything but ball. (Without digging through a mess of stuff, I can't be sure, though.) I would be stunned if results with the 9x18 were a whole lot different from those with .380s, though. Anyhow, 9x18 ball seems to have no issue with penetrating sufficiently - I've worked on just over a dozen killings with this round.

As for over penetration, I would never even think twice about that VERY SLIM possibility.

I do - the prospect terrifies me. I've worked on three overpenetration shooting cases. Mas Ayoob has compiled quite a number of them in a recent Combat Handguns article. There are some rounds in which I would never carry ball - in civilization. Since you're liable for everything that comes out the front of your gun, it really behooves you to know what your carry rounds are likely to do from your gun. And then match it to your needs. What I carry up Bear Canyon is certainly different from what I carry in town.
 
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Ok, I'm quite happy BB is offering this. I see they've listed the velocity of the CZ-82, a pistol that has polygonal rifling. Being hardcast rather than swaged, these would likely be of no concern for the CZ-82, correct?

I've got a buddy who has put many rounds of hardcast (Brinell probably of 18-20) through his G21 without issues, though velocity was low and he cleans regularly.

Being what these are, I doubt many will put a couple hundred rounds through a CZ-82 between cleaning... but who knows.
 
I have a PA-63, only 9x18 I have. I have several boxes of surplus Combloc ammo that looks just like this, does anybody know anything about this ammo? Weak, hot, good, bad? I also have handloads in LRN and HP's, but if this surplus stuff is good I'd be OK with using that for carry. I like the penetration aspect.

9X18RUSSIAN16RD.gif
 
rondog,

I don't think that's really military surplus ammo; It has a heavier, 100-grain bullet. In fact, the one bullet I pulled and measured weighed 105-grains. Definitely not Military.

It was one of the first Russian 9x18 offerings for the Makarovs we were getting delivered back when. It's a good round, travels around 930 fps, and has a corrosive primer. The cartride case is soft steel and the bullet is steel cased so if your range uses magnets to discriminate against steel shooters you will not pass.

If you don't mind corrosive primers this is a good FMJ round for SD.
 
9X18RUSSIAN16RD.gif

I have some of the same ammo from B-West and have ran it over my chronograph. Pulled the bullet and it weighed 105.5 grs uses a 3.5 gr charge of unknown Soviet powder. Average velocity from my Russian Makarov was 1,003 fps, velocity range was 996 fps to 1,023 fps, St Dev 14.05 fps, ME 236 ft lbs, 5 shots fired for record.
 
I do - the prospect terrifies me. I've worked on three overpenetration shooting cases. Mas Ayoob has compiled quite a number of them in a recent Combat Handguns article. There are some rounds in which I would never carry ball - in civilization. Since you're liable for everything that comes out the front of your gun, it really behooves you to know what your carry rounds are likely to do from your gun. And then match it to your needs. What I carry up Bear Canyon is certainly different from what I carry in town.

Considering how likely it is to miss your target all together, and those rounds are much more dangerous at full speed than a bullet that has lost the overwhelming majority of it's velocity and energy, I'll stick with penetration. I'd rather have over penetration than not enough penetration. I prefer jhp only because they create a larger wound cavity, which means potentially more blood loss and a better chance of hitting a vital spot. But the only JHP I shoot are either very hot, or in a slow moving round like the 45acp. But I have no problem with 38spl and Wadcutters for defense. My 32 and 380 I shoot fmj or similar such as PowerBall ammo. My 9x18 I normally shoot silver bear HP because they are easily available, but I also shoot PowerBall ammo in that also. But now that the Buffalo-Bore flat nose is out, I will definitely be buying some of that.

Bottom line; if there's a choice of not enough penetration or possibly over penetration, I'll take the over penetration any day of the week. I would rather practice more an eliminate the MUCH GREATER RISK of missing the target all together, and the round flying very long distances and hitting an innocent person.

In 2006, in cases where New York City police officers intentionally fired a gun at a person, they discharged 364 bullets and hit their target 103 times, for a hit rate of 28.3 percent, according to the department’s Firearms Discharge Report. In 2005, officers fired 472 times in the same circumstances, hitting their mark 82 times, for a 17.4 percent hit rate. In Los Angeles, where there are far fewer shots discharged, the police fired 67 times in 2006 and had 27 hits, a 40 percent hit rate, which, while better than New York’s, still shows that they miss targets more often they hit them.

These are very common statistics. And most people will say that police are more prepared to fire a weapon than a private citizen. Sorry, but if 60-70% of my shots have the potential of missing their target, then I should be worrying more about that than the minimal possibility of a bullet over penetrating and having enough velocity and energy to be critical on an innocent bystander. I personally will not be in the same shooting situations as police officers. I doubt any of us will. (Although there are some that believe that their threats are the same as police. I disagree). I know for me, and I can only speak for me, I will not draw a pistol and aim it at someone unless I AM GOING to pull the trigger. There is not questioning that. I do not fire warning shots. I do not try and scare them away by the presence of a gun. I plan on shooting them. And probably, with the entire magazine or cylinder; unless they've fallen before that. I believe that the odds of me hitting my target is much higher than those in the reports. The anxiety of shooting a person doesn't bother me. I've been in enough situations where the thought of shooting another human being doesn't even make me think twice. At the same time, I believe drawing a weapon should be the last option. And again, there is no doubt in my mind, that unless the bad guy happens to be running AWAY from me when I aim, I plan on shooting that person. If I didn't plan on shooting them, I never would have drawn the weapon. Guns are not deterrent. I won't say freeze. I won't say get away. I won't call for help. If I pull that weapon out, I AM pulling the trigger unless they've already started running away as I was reaching for it.

So I'll take maximum penetration. Is it possible it could over penetrate and strike an innocent person? Yes, but that risk is many time less than missing all together and hitting someone. I'm willing to take that risk.
 
Cpileri has a valid concern and I second that concern. I own three Maks (two Russian and one Bulgarian) and I've never heard or read anything about them being rated for +P ammo. I certainly would NEVER use +P ammo in a PA-63, P-64, P-83, etc. I don't know much about the CZ-82 as I've never given any real consideration to owning one. However, CZ use to give the option of having a CZ-83 built with the 9x18 barrel. Again, I never saw anything about the CZ-83 being rated for +P.

Call me overly cautious if you wish, but you won't find me using +P rated ammo in my Maks. :rolleyes:
 
I am just cautious,

Maybe too cautious; esp since thie BB ammo is stated to be at normal Mak pressures. I did order some BBore normal pressure 380, though- for the Ruger LCP. I have fired a mag or 2 of their 380+P in the LCP; but since the normal pressure hardcast flat nose is available, i am going to switch to that (Ruger says no +P).
Now, the Keltec can take +P in 32Auto, so...

I just love Buffalo Bore stuff. I am really looking foward to the heavy 30-30!

And it would make my day if some heavy (174gr, 200+gr) 7.62x39 came out: stuff that would cycle an AK-style rifle, as well as maybe some subsonic stuff.

But back on topic: I'd like to see a gelatin test of the Mak hollow point; otherwise i think that the hard cast is the way to go in the "smaller" calibers.

C-
 
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