Polygonal Barrel (CZ-82) and Lead Bullets

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It's all in the variations in the thousandths....(or tens....)

One gun might just rub just that little bit more off of the bullet, X 100 rounds to be a ticking time bomb.

The next barrel on the line might be just that little bit wider and barely skim any lead off the round, and soldier on for a few thousand without killing you.

Either way, if you're shooting lead, Clean up the Gun, and yourself after. Why risk it. (not cleaning that is.... I shoot soft lead, albeit not in a polygonal... it's just good sense)
 
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...does NOT cause lead fouling in the polygonal rifling's used in all 9X18 Makarov pistols.

I also was not aware that ALL 9x18's were polygonal rifled... I don't own a Makarov, but I'm pretty sure they're conventional.

Easyg, I am glad that you are satisfied with fmj and jhp, but there are many good reasons to shoot lead bullets, first and foremost being economy. Also, at least in my experience with my CZ-82, Rainier's hard-cast lead bullets were measurably more accurate than the Berry's Plated bullets I also use. Nevertheless, I am using the plated bullets for now, as they are accurate enough, cost very little more, and one of the ranges I shoot at does not allow plain lead. Were it not for the range, I would be shooting lead more.
 
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Does anyone really plink with the buffalo bore stuff? Too expensive for my blood. I ran a mag of it through my cz-82 to ensure it cycles fine and shoots to the point of aim. To nobody's surprise, the cz-82 ate it like a pitbull eats a porkchop, and it shot to the point of aim. Then I went back to regular fmj's, saving the rest of the hardcast buffalo bore for carry use.

Wicked little round for what it is.
 
Another point you might want to consider is that the CZ-82 was actually designed for the vz-82 9x18mak, which is like saying .38 auto and .38super, it can handle a little extra pressure. I posted the link in this thread

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=6655321#post6655321

Also lots of people and the CZ forum and Surplus rifle report using cast bullets just fine in the CZ 82,

Also there are many different types of polygonal barrels
 
There is a solution to this "problem", perhaps.
After-market barrels for Glock pistols are available from several sources, these being non-polygonal rifled, and therefore suitable for use with cast bullets.

Someone might be doing similar barrels for the CZ-82. Of course, as has been mentioned, people fire cast bullets in Glocks, without problems, or seemingly so. Therefore, perhaps with the CZ-82 also.
 
Alan, you are right, you can get a conventional barrel for the 82... in .380.
As far as I know, all Cz-82 Mak barrels are polygonal. Even the few CZ-83's chambered in 9x18 are polygonal, I believe.
 
Walk; when they used the word "ALL" that you highlighted, that doesn't mean all 9x18 barrel are polygonal. It referred to ALL the polygonal barrels used in 9x18 pistols. E.g. CZ-82.

Alan; sorry, but why in the world would I want to spend $100 or more on a barrel for by CZ-82 when the one in there works just fine. And in case you didn't know, the CZ-82 is a blow-back. Which means, the barrel doesn't drop "POP" out. It's sort of fixed. Yes, it can be removed, but not simply by the common user.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with using hard cast bullets in the cz-82. Matter of fact, there's nothing wrong with using regular lead bullets if you know how to clean and take care of your pistol. As already pointed out, polygonal barrels have been around A LOT LONGER than FMJ/HP bullets have. Do you think they were shooting paintballs or something? It's really hard to debate this topic when I already know the truth. I KNOW; there's some out there that swear that they know this guy who has a friend, who's girlfriend's brother blew his arm off when his pistol blew up with a lead bullet in it. And I'm sure that some who say never to use lead in a polygonal barrel believe they too know the truth. Fine; stalemate. But I do know, and I'm definitely not going to change my opinion because someone on a forum said so. Then again, we've had this same silly discussion when it comes to dry firing a pistol. There's those that swear you should never dry fire a pistol; and of course they say that snap caps are so cheap, so why take the chance. Truth is, snap caps are so cheap, so why should you learn the truth. There are a FEW manufacturers that mention not dry firing; but that's very few. But that too doesn't matter.

For the rest out there, if you don't reload and you don't buy ammo such as buffalo-bore, then you have absolutely no dog in this fight, so no need to even get involved. For those who do reload their CZ-82, if you don't want to take the NORMAL OBVIOUS precautions when shooting lead, then don't reload lead and you won't have to worry about this topic ever again. But for those that know how to take care of a pistol, and you've done your homework, then you know that you can safely shoot hard cast and lead bullets in your CZ-82.
 
christcorp, I'm aware of what they meant, but what they said was that all makarov pistols featured polygonal rifling.
 
As already pointed out, polygonal barrels have been around A LOT LONGER than FMJ/HP bullets have. Do you think they were shooting paintballs or something?
Jacketed bullets came about due to increasing chamber pressures and velocities. The reason there were no issues shooting lead bullets through polygonal rifling before jacketed rounds came along was because the pressures and velocities were very low.
... someone on a forum said so.
That is a remarkably inaccurate summation of the evidence that has been presented on this thread regarding the issues with shooting unjacketed rounds in polygonal rifling.
But for those that know how to take care of a pistol, and you've done your homework, then you know that you can safely shoot hard cast and lead bullets in your CZ-82.
I should point out that the reason the forensic engineer became interested in the topic was because, in spite of knowing how to take care of a pistol and in spite of doing his homework, and after firing many thousands of rounds without incident, he blew up a pistol with polygonal rifling by shooting lead bullets through it.

His subsequent testing proved the cause of the incident conclusively.

You're certainly welcome to your opinion, but to suggest that your opinion, based on your limited experience with polygonal rifling should supercede pressure and velocity measurements made by a forensic engineer is somewhat reckless.

It is possible to get away with using lead bullets in polygonal rifling but without very carefully monitoring pressures (or at least velocities) it is not possible to make an accurate statement as to whether or not it's safe to shoot unjacketed rounds in a particular gun.

Even proving that it is safe in one particular instance of a model of firearm does not imply that it is safe in other apparently identical instances of the same model of firearm due to the fact that even very minor expected differences in chamber/bore from one firearm to another can make signficant differences in how that particular barrel lead fouls and in how many rounds it will take to generate an unsafe condition. The late Gale MacMillan, who knew a thing or two about barrels, once made the following statement to those who insisted on shooting lead bullets through polygonal rifling: "If you haven't had trouble just be patient."

Furthermore, the implied claim that you have done your homework on the topic is called into question by the fact that you contradict Allan Jones, Beretta and others who state categorically that the practice of trying to remove lead fouling by firing a jacketed round down the bore is highly inadvisable.

To be perfectly clear, if you're currently getting away with shooting lead in a polygonal barrel then I'm not saying you're cheating death. If you continue to do exactly what you're doing now then the odds are you'll continue to get away with it. But if you go buy another gun you should not assume that what's keeping the current gun from leading will work for the second one. Same for the similar gun your friend owns. And if you change something in your load or fire a few more rounds than usual in a range session there's no guarantee that you'll still stay below the safe limit. You're probably safe doing EXACTLY as you have always done with the loads and guns you're using, but even that isn't a guarantee of continued safety.

The forensics engineer blew up his gun at around the 23K round mark. Part of his investigation and testing was done to try to determine how to remain safe while using lead bullets in polygonal rifling. His testing drove him to the conclusion that there is no good way for insuring safety short of careful pressure/velocity measurements. He now uses jacketed or good quality plated bullets in his reloads for polygonally rifled guns.
 
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excerpted from christcorp who wrote:


Alan; sorry, but why in the world would I want to spend $100 or more on a barrel for by CZ-82 when the one in there works just fine. And in case you didn't know, the CZ-82 is a blow-back. Which means, the barrel doesn't drop "POP" out. It's sort of fixed. Yes, it can be removed, but not simply by the common user.

--------------------------

I didn't say, nor would I say that you should do anything in particular, for instance buying an after market barrel, whatever the price. That is something that's up to you.

I simply offererd a comment/information re what MIGHT be available for anyone who might be interested, given concerns raised re shooting lead bullets in Polygonal barrels. If it works for you, carry on. By the way, I know that the CZ-82 is Blowback Action Pistol. So are the line of Makarov Chambered Pistols, Russian, former East German, Polish Radon (P-83) and Chinese, and there are others too.

As to barrel changes, with Makarov Pistols, an arbor press device was useful, based on what I've been told by people who changed barrels. From PICTURES of the CZ-82 I've seen, looks similar, but that is a guess on my part.
 
It just occurred to me to ask about plated bullets, such as Rainier's and Berry's, they are softer than traditional jacketed bullets, right? The Rainier site advises to use lead bullet load data, but makes no mention of polygonal barrels.
walksbyhimself, actually, some lead cores inside the copper jacket are softer than lead cores of plated bullets. Over the years, quality of copper plating has been more consistent and gotten thicker so the concern over plating cut through by the rifling (conventional square land/groove with sharp corners) as the bullet travels down the barrel is less.

As to plated bullets using lead load data, it has more to do with the diameter of the bullet (plated bullets are sized between jacketed bullet and lead bullet diameters). Using 9mm Para (9x19) as an example, jacketed bullet diameter is around 0.355" but lead bullet diameter is around 0.356". It takes more powder charge to push the smaller diameter jacketed bullet to the same velocity of the lead bullet as the hard jacketing allows more gas to escape around the bullet-to-rifling gap. Larger diameter lead bullets provide better bullet-to-rifling fit and generate higher velocity from the same amount of powder charge.

Rainier Ballistics 9mm bullets are sized to around 0.355" and Berry's/Power Bond 9mm bullets are sized to around 0.3555". Due to the larger diameter of the sized bullets, Berry's recommend the use of lead load data.

The concern over shooting lead bullets in polygonal barrels is that the design of the polygonal rifling decreases the bullet-to-rifling gap and produces higher chamber pressure and generate higher velocities. Conventional land/groove rifling will accommodate/tolerate greater amount of fouling/lead buildup between the bullet and rifling before overpressure of chamber is reached. With some polygonal rifled factory barrels (like Glock with hill/valley hexagonal rifling), shooting larger diameter lead bullets may result in accelerated chamber pressure buildup especially if the fouling/lead buildup occurs at the chamber/rifling transition area from too hard (24 BHN vs 18/12 BHN) lead bullets that fail to obturate the base (flattening of the base from expanding gas to seal the base of the bullet against the rifling) properly and gas cutting occurs. Gas cutting of lead bullet causes the hot gas burning from the case to melt the lead/bullet lube and deposit fouling/lead in the chamber/rifling.

Harder 24 BHN lead bullets require high-end charge loads to obturate the base properly. Less harder 18/12 BHN lead bullets obturate the base of the bullet better even with mid-high charge loads. Proper obturation of the lead bullet base is the key to minimizing fouling/lead buildup in any barrel (conventional land/groove or polygonal hill/valley rifling), which is the primary cause of chamber over pressure other than powder overcharge.

I use conventional land/groove rifled Lone Wolf after-market barrels to shoot lead reloads in my Glocks. I do shoot lead bullets in my factory Glock barrels on occasion, but inspect/clean the barrel every 200-300 rounds or so.

So, can you shoot lead reloads in polygonal barrels? Yes, but inspect/clean the barrel often.

Be safe - peace.
 
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FWIW:
From http://en.allexperts.com/e/p/po/poly...ifling.htm#hd3

Lead bullets and polygonal rifling
The manufacturer GLOCK advises against using lead bullets (meaning bullets not covered by a copper jacket) in their polygonally rifled barrels, which has lead to a widespread belief that polygonal rifling is not compatable with lead bullets. However, this appears to be due to other properties of the GLOCK barrel, as neither H&K nor Kahr recommend against lead bullets. The GLOCK barrels have a fairly sharp transition between the chamber and the rifling, and this area is prone to lead buildup if lead bullets are used. Since the GLOCK will fire while slightly out of battery (by design, as this increases reliabilty under adverse conditions), and since shooting lead bullets may result in failures to fully return to battery, shooting lead bullets can lead to an increased risk of a case head failure.
The polygonal barreled HK P7 manual specifically states jacketed bullets ONLY.

Do not ever use exposed lead bullets in a P7, it will goo up the gas system.
 
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So does it even bother mentioning that most of the lead problem is a pressure and speed thing, and that at higher temps and pressures you melt the led and that can cause leading. So if you reload to a lead standard why, again, would a poly barrel be any different than a rifled barrel????
 
Not all polygonal barrels/guns are equal.

The warning against using lead bullets in the H&K P-7...they issued the same warning about the origin aluminum Silvertips...has to do with shaving material into the gas port and clogging the cylinder.

Polygonal rifling, by it's very nature, creates a tighter seal with the slug (less deformation of the bullet)...that's why they claim high velocities...so any build-up of lead has a greater effect on pressure. You have to remember that Polygonal rifling isn't cut into a barrel blank. H&K worries that end users will not take the extra care needed to maintain a clean barrel/leade.

Glock's rifling isn't truely polygon in the classic sense. The shape they use is more prone to cause soft lead buildup. If you are OCD about cleaning the barrel, you could likely get away with shooting lead in their barrels...but then I'm not OCD
 
Just an observation here. I have seen plenty of HKs and Glocks shoot lead projectiles. I even killed a deer with a 180 LRN from a buddies G20. He shoots unreal amounts of lead from his G20. BEFORE he fires a single jacketed round it gets cleaned in full.

The biggest problem with lead in barrels that lead up alot is the people that shoot some jacketed rounds after shooting lead to preclean the bore. The majority of Kbs come from this practice. Second cause is faulty ammo that will Kb any gun. I have seen all makes of guns "Kb" after a case was loaded too many times...

Just observations from many years of shooting folks, nothing more.
 
Glock's rifling isn't truely polygon in the classic sense. The shape they use is more prone to cause soft lead buildup. If you are OCD about cleaning the barrel, you could likely get away with shooting lead in their barrels
Correct. I do shoot lead reloads in factory Glock barrels for load development and testing. I always recommend if the reloads "bulge" in factory Glock barrels, reduce the charge. Yes, better OCD about inspection/cleaning of the barrel than not. Most of my lead reloads are shot out of Lone Wolf barrels.

The biggest problem with lead in barrels that lead up alot is the people that shoot some jacketed rounds after shooting lead to preclean the bore. The majority of Kbs come from this practice. Second cause is faulty ammo that will Kb any gun. I have seen all makes of guns "Kb" after a case was loaded too many times...
I actually tried this several years ago and it really did not work well for me in conventional land/groove rifled barrels. The leading was minimal, so perhaps hot gases escaping around the jacketed bullet and rifling did little on the minimal leading. I guess, if the leading was substantial, escaping gases may loosen and remove the leading. But I would fear what the extra obstruction would do to chamber pressure increase? :eek:
 
Boris: I'm one of those that shoot jacketed after shooting lead. However, I believe that I know what I'm doing. Been shooting for about 40 years. I can honestly say, that except for my 45acp's which I shoot about 80% lead; I don't shoot more than a box of lead through any pistol before cleaning it. And when I shoot a FMJ in my CZ-82 after shooting lead, it's usually 3 mags of lead, 1 mag of FMJ. And to be honest; when I finish shooting for the day, and have shot that last full mag of FMJ, the CZ-82 doesn't require much cleaning. I clean it thoroughly anyway.

But while we're on the topic of cleaning, I'll be the first to admit that in the guns that I only shoot jacketed bullets out of, I rarely clean those guns. I might put 100 rounds a month through them, but I only clean the barrels twice a year. I will air can blow out any dirt, dust, particles, etc... after shooting; and lube the mechanics, but that's it. I totally strip and clean ALL MY GUNS: Pistols and Rifles; every September. I'm getting rifles ready for hunting, so I simply clean all my guns. I then clean them all again around April, before my shooting time goes up a lot.

I clean my Sig and kimber after each outing, because 80% of my shooting with them is with LRN reloads. (Mastercast.net). Sometimes, if I'm shooting lead in the cz-82, I'll clean it for sure after the day. But if I haven't shot lead, then it and all the other guns don't get the barrels cleaned very often. Just twice a year.
 
Re all the discussion over/about firing lead bullets in polygonal rifled barrels, and cleaning when the shooting is finished. I really don't understand what the problem with cleaning is.

I shoot hard cast bullets (2% Tin, 6-7% antimony, the remainder Lead) in 9 mm Parabellum chambered pistols virtually exclusively, with no problems whatever. Admittedly, none of my barrels are polygonal rifled, I use an old Star Model 30 and a newer CZ 75, sometimes an older Browning Hi-Power.

After shooting, I use a wet patch and Ballistol, followed by a brass brush wetted with Ballistol, another patch wetter with Ballistol, then leave the barrel wet over night.

Next day or later, I run dry patch through the barrel to remove cleaning compound residue. The barrel looks clean/smooth as a baby's you know what, no sign of leading. The cleaning takes about 10 minutes.

As for lead in the P-7, given it's "gas operation", I believe it was a gas retarded blow back action, sounds like a mouthful, not to mention counterintitutive, lead in the gas system will plug the thing, or so I understand. While I expect that the P-7's are sort of "rare birds", why run the risk of screwing up a good pistol.
 
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This was after 100 rounds of hard cast through my broach cut rifling, and after 5 previous patches with bits, pieces and long shavings coming out. It's also the reason I don't shoot lead anymore.

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While we're at it, do these polygonal barrels really impart more velocity on rounds?

It would be nice to know my HK P7 is getting a little extra "ooomph" with it's polygonal rifling, but when i talked to Tim Sundles of Buffalo Bore about the subject, he said he didn't think that the claim held true.
 
i doubt it makes much difference...i'm basing this on talking to a guy who used to shoot the P-7 in USPSA competition.

you should have a velocity advantage with the P-7 over like sized guns because of it's longer barrel in a smaller package. the P-7 has a 4" barrel, partly because of the straight mag they designed for it
 
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