Polygonal Barrel (CZ-82) and Lead Bullets

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Howdy all,

I was checking out Buffalo Bore's "coming soon" stuff, and saw that they're coming out with two 9x18 loads. One of them is a 115 gr Hard cast lead bullet @ 1000fps, and looks really interesting to me.

http://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_list&c=58

I've read that cast lead bullets can cause excessive leading in polygonal-rifled barrels, which the 82 has. Does anybody have any experience with the CZ Vz. 82 in this regard? Any input as to shooting lead through other pistols with poly-rifled barrels would be welcome as well. Also, do hard cast lead bullets alleviate the problem?

Thanks
 
Hard cast is ok, just be meticulous in cleaning, and don't run extremely fast hard cast without a gas check. I think in this case it is fine. Soft lead you should definitely avoid though.
 
FWIW:
From http://en.allexperts.com/e/p/po/polygonal_rifling.htm#hd3

Lead bullets and polygonal rifling
The manufacturer GLOCK advises against using lead bullets (meaning bullets not covered by a copper jacket) in their polygonally rifled barrels, which has lead to a widespread belief that polygonal rifling is not compatable with lead bullets. However, this appears to be due to other properties of the GLOCK barrel, as neither H&K nor Kahr recommend against lead bullets. The GLOCK barrels have a fairly sharp transition between the chamber and the rifling, and this area is prone to lead buildup if lead bullets are used. Since the GLOCK will fire while slightly out of battery (by design, as this increases reliabilty under adverse conditions), and since shooting lead bullets may result in failures to fully return to battery, shooting lead bullets can lead to an increased risk of a case head failure.
 
+1 NG-VI

I went through this with an H&K USP .45–after some research, the consensus seemed to be the following: go ahead and shoot hard cast (not soft lead!) bullets out of polygonal barrels, but keep a closer eye on lead build-up than you might with standard rifling. The concern is that the lead "smears" a polygonal barrel, and can potentially cause a KB if left unchecked.
 
Just so you realize, polygonal barrels have been around for hundreds of years. And considering that the jacketed bullet was designed until about 1883 or so, people we obviously shooting lead bullets in polygonal barrels.

Bottom line, a normal day at the range where that particular gun might get 50-100 rounds through it, isn't going to hurt a thing. Even in a glock. If you clean/brush the barrel of your gun like most people do, after each visit to the range, you have nothing to worry about. Get hundreds of rounds of lead bullets through your gun without ever cleaning the barrel, and you could have problems. It's definitely safe to shoot lead in the CZ-82. Just clean it.
 
One other caution is to avoid shooting jacketed rounds through a leaded bore until you have cleaned all the lead from the rifling. That applies to all firearms to one extent or another, but the polygonally rifled guns seem especially prone to unpleasant incidents when a jacketed round tries to squeeze down a leaded bore.
 
Actually, If I'm at the range and I've shot a box or two of lead bullets down my CZ-82, I will usually end the session by firing 1-2 magazines of FMJ down the barrel. That tends to clean a large portion of the barrel out of the lead. Cleaning is so much easier. Now, if you happen to be the person who shoots 500-1000 rounds of lead through it without ever cleaning it, then i probably wouldn't go with hard rounds like FMJ or JHP until cleaning. But for shooting 50-100 rounds of lead, I purposely shoot 10-20 rounds of FMJ immediately afterwards to clean out most of the lead. mike...
 
I will share what I have been told by Mike at Double Tap in an email conversation I had recently while dealing with the same dilema:

Me:
"I'm interested to know if you could provide me with additional information regarding the use of your 10mm 230gr. WFNGC Hardcast round in a stock Glock 29. Will I need to purchase a separate barrel to run this ammo through it in? I want to know what sort of mods I will have to make to my gun, if any, before I run this round through it...."

Mike:
"Yes, that load will work perfectly in your G29 with no modifications. That being said, I really prefer the 21lb spring. It reduces felt recoil and slows the slide, making it more comfortable to shoot..."

Me:
"For posted ballistics on site do you fire rounds through stock Glock or with barrel swap?"

Mike:
"Stock G20 and G29 used in all lot testing.
Mike McNett
DoubleTap Ammunition
1-866-357-10mm"

Hope that helps a little bit to shed some light on the issue you're dealing with.
 
From what I've seen, heard, read, cast bullets and polygonal rifled barrels are not compatable.

Having said that, I know some people who regularly fire HARD CAST lead bullets in Glock pistols, carefully clean after shooting, without problems.

One reason I stayed away from the CZ-82 is the polygonal rifled barrel. Could be that I was wrong here, that's just what I did.

I've fired thousands of cast bullet loads in 9mm Luger and 9 x 18 mm chambered pistols without problem. The barrels, of Makarov, Browning and CZ pistols were "conventionally rifled", that is non polygonal though.
 
Thanks all for the replies! It appears that the concensus is that hard cast bullets should be ok, but I'll be vigilant in watching out for warning signs. It's unlikely that I'd be shooting large volumes of rounds with lead anyway, so the question is largely academic.
It just occurred to me to ask about plated bullets, such as Rainier's and Berry's, they are softer than traditional jacketed bullets, right? The Rainier site advises to use lead bullet load data, but makes no mention of polygonal barrels.

We, at Rainier Ballistics, recommend using lead bullet load data when loading our bullets. There is no need for adjustment when using lead bullet load data. Our bullets are jacketed using an electroplating process and are softer than traditionally jacketed bullets; hence the recommendation to use lead bullet load data. If you only have access to traditionally jacketed load data, we recommend reducing maximum charge by 10%. A roll or taper crimp may be used with our bullets; do not over crimp.

Any thoughts?
 
I personally tend to avoid weapons with a polygonal barrel. Particularly since I am a huge fan of the .40 S&W load.
 
inSight-NEO:
I personally tend to avoid weapons with a polygonal barrel. Particularly since I am a huge fan of the .40 S&W load.

Could you explain this statement further? I'm curious why the caliber would have anything to do with a particular barrel preference...? Does .40S&W rub the barrel more than other loadings?
 
Actually, If I'm at the range and I've shot a box or two of lead bullets down my CZ-82, I will usually end the session by firing 1-2 magazines of FMJ down the barrel. That tends to clean a large portion of the barrel out of the lead. Cleaning is so much easier. Now, if you happen to be the person who shoots 500-1000 rounds of lead through it without ever cleaning it, then i probably wouldn't go with hard rounds like FMJ or JHP until cleaning. But for shooting 50-100 rounds of lead, I purposely shoot 10-20 rounds of FMJ immediately afterwards to clean out most of the lead. mike...
Some years back there was a guy who posted on an online forum that he blew up a Glock by firing a one box (50 rounds) of lead (unjacketed) rounds down his barrel followed by a single FMJ round. It came apart on him when he fired the jacketed round. The pictures were sobering.

In the February 2010 issue of Shooting Times, there is an article by Allan Jones who has worked as a technician for Speer and did the editing and research work for some of their reloading manuals. He also has a rather long list of impressive credentials that qualify him as a serious firearm/ammunition/reloading expert. He writes that shooting jacketed bullets down a leaded bore is "A Big 'No-No'". The article is in the "Going Ballistic" Column and is entitled: "The Lowdown on Lead Fouling". The applicable text is quoted below.
"How many times have you thought it easier to shoot the lead out with a jacketed bullet? Well, don't even think about it. In extreme cases, this can cause irreparable damage. I've seen revolver barrel throats deformed and thin-walled barrels bulged. Either means a new barrel."​
Beretta warns against the practice in the manuals of several of their semi-auto pistols. The text of the warning follows. (By the way, Beretta firearms use conventional rifling, not polygonal rifling--this isn't just a polygonal rifling issue.)
DO NOT ever shoot cartridges with jacketed bullets through a barrel previously fired with lead bullets before the bore is thoroughly deleaded.​
Obviously some folks get away with this (I did it a few times without incident when I started my shooting career before I began finding warnings against it) but it is a practice that has a potential to cause damage to firearms and possibly even injury to the shooter.
It just occurred to me to ask about plated bullets, such as Rainier's and Berry's, they are softer than traditional jacketed bullets, right? The Rainier site advises to use lead bullet load data, but makes no mention of polygonal barrels.
One of the researchers who publicized the polygonal rifling/lead bullet issues was a forensic engineer named Mark Passamaneck. After blowing up a Glock with lead bullet reloads he did some fairly extensive pressure testing. His conclusions were that shooting even very hard lead bullets resulted in a measurable pressure increase with each additional round fired in a shooting session.

He stopped shooting lead bullets in guns with polygonally rifled barrels based on the results of his research but he indicated that he still shot plated bullets and didn't have any problems with them.

Just be careful. One of the worst cases of leading I ever experienced was the result of some low quality plated bullets. The plating was very thin and the lead underneath was dead soft. The plating was totally insufficient to do anything other than make the fouling a little harder to remove. So plated bullets should be ok, but check anyway when you first start using them to make sure that they're holding together and not causing leading in the bore.
 
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Should one wish to shot cast bullets through a Glock pistol, there are a number of makers who offer conventially rifled DROP IN BARRELS for the Glock line of handguns, such barrels being fine with klead.

From what I've heard about Glock pistols, which by the way are a good service type pistol, there are other potential problems that might come up as a result of firing cast bullets. One is the firing pin jamming forward, the result of residue build up, which could cause the pistol to go FULL AUTOMATIC. Obviously, such a circumstance could be problematic, to use a polite term. I've had 1911 type pistols go FULL AUTO a time or two, one the result an extreme "trigger job", don't really know what caused the second instance, it ony hapened once. They can become quite a handful in such situations. Then there is the possibility of legal problems too, depending on who observes what is a mal function. I believe one fellow currently languishes in jail over a mal functioning AR-15.

I do not know if after market barrels are available for the CZ 82.
 
Shoot all the lead you want out of the CZ, just check for lead buildup (if any; I suspect you won't find any more than with land-and-groove rifling) and clean as needed before shooting any more. The problems with Glock barrels and lead bullets are much talked about, but I think this is from a combination of other properties and factors of the barrel and the gun as a whole and not solely due to poly rifling. My Kahr PM9 has poly rifling, but I can find no specific caution or prohibition against lead bullets in the manual.
 
The problem with shooting cast through Glock (Factory) barrels is in fact the sharp transition from the chamber to the rifling. NOT the polygonal rifling. I have shot a considerable amount of lead through HK USP's with not a single issue. The possibility of shaving bits of lead as the bullet obturates during firing can result in increased chamber pressures and a possible KB. If you want to shoot cast through a Glock buy any one of the aftermarket barrels with traditional rifling as you should be able to recoup your investment quickly by shooting the more economical lead.
As far as shooting plated bullets.. I have only shot Berry's bullets and Rainier Ballistics but have had no problems whatsoever with them.
 
I have shot a considerable amount of lead through HK USP's with not a single issue.
That's good. I hope it continues to be true.

1. Not everyone has been so lucky. Click here for information on an incident involving lead bullets and an H&K USP.
2. One person (a forensic engineer) who established conclusively that the polygonal rifling in Glock barrels can create a dangerous situation shot 23,000 rounds through his Glock before he blew it up due to the combination of polygonal rifling and lead bullets. It's worth pointing out that he could have made exactly the same statement you made at round 22,000. He has co-authored a book called The Glock in Competition that includes a chapter that covers his research into polygonal rifling. Full of hard data (pressure measurements, etc.) remarkably light on speculation.
The problem with shooting cast through Glock (Factory) barrels is in fact the sharp transition from the chamber to the rifling. NOT the polygonal rifling.
If it's a fact, then there must be some supporting data. I would be interested in seeing it.

If you don't have supporting data then it's an opinion, or perhaps even a theory.
My Kahr PM9 has poly rifling, but I can find no specific caution or prohibition against lead bullets in the manual.
There is a caution in the FAQ on the Kahr website about lead (unjacketed) bullets causing "excessive fouling".
 
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Thanks all for the great information (special thanks to JohnKsa for the sources for add'l info), it is much appreciated. I don't post a whole lot, as 99% (rough estimate) of the time, a search answers my questions admirably. Thanks for making this rare event a great pleasure.
 
My recommendation.

DO NOT shoot lead bullets in barrels using anything but conventional rifling.

PERIOD.
 
There is a huge difference.....

..... between hard cast lead and soft swaged or cast bullets. After a lot of research I am going to try pure Linotype in my CZ82. Many, many folks report shooting such bullets in these guns with no leading. I shoot the same alloy in my .30 Carbine with zero leading @ 1800fps. I will. of course, keep an eye on it until I am sure there is no leading.
 
There's definitely a big difference between "Hard Cast" and soft swaged and cast lead. Here is a direct quote from Buffalo-bore. FWIW: They test all rounds with the exact guns they are designing for. This link is for the 115 grain hard cast flat nose; designed for defense specifically in the CZ-82 pistol. Click the link below. FWIW: When they say "Makarov Pistols" they are referring to the "CALIBER - 9x18 Makarov" and not the manufacturer.

Further, please note that the use of hard cast bullets (not lead but, Hard Cast) does NOT cause lead fouling in the polygonal rifling's used in all 9X18 Makarov pistols. For more information, please see our technical articles entitled "Hard Cast Bullets in Polygonal Barrels" and "Dangers of Pure Lead Cowboy Bullets". We found no appreciable leading in any of our Makarov test guns. It should also be noted that all of our test guns functioned and fed flawlessly with this load. We also experienced very good to excellent accuracy in all test guns.

http://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=220
 
what's with the obsession with lead bullets?

exposing yourself to straight lead is bad for your health. Reloading is cheap as it is. Use FMJs! Come on guys.
 
Lead bullets are not only used in reloading. As pointed out, companies like buffalo-bore make their ammunition with Hard Cast.

Lead from ammunition is only bad for your health if you're the type that plays with it all day; picks your nose; and/or doesn't clean up afterwards. And even then, it's a slim chance. The only other time it is hazardous to your health, is if you get shot with it.

Finally, the main reason for reloading is to save money. Yes, it can also be a nice hobby, but it's cheaper than commercial ammo. And lead bullets are cheaper than FMJ.

You are not being forced to reload or to buy Buffalo-bore ammunition. But don't you think you're being a little self righteous for saying there's no reason or need for lead bullets to exist, let alone to even have a thread where we're discussing it? I think you might be. (Unintentionally of course)
 
...does NOT cause lead fouling in the polygonal rifling's used in all 9X18 Makarov pistols.
Pretty impressive claim.

Passamaneck's testing demonstrated dramatic differences in leading even when comparing two pistols that appeared to be identical.

He tested two identical pistols both obviously having polygonally rifled barrels. While the first pistol could shoot 300 rounds and show only a 50fps velocity increase due to the pressure increase from the leading buildup, a second identical pistol using the same loading showed a 100fps increase after shooting only 75 rounds.

So BB's claim that ALL 9x18 pistols won't lead is not to be trusted. There is no way they tested enough pistols to begin to make such a claim. The fact that the few pistols they tested didn't lead is encouraging, but it's absolutely not a guarantee that "all 9x18 Makarov pistols" won't lead.
As pointed out, companies like buffalo-bore make their ammunition with Hard Cast.
Which makes them, perhaps, not quite an objective source of information on the problems that can arise when using lead bullet ammunition in certain types of autopistols.
There's definitely a big difference between "Hard Cast" and soft swaged and cast lead.
True. It's also true that hard cast will lead a barrel less than swaged or soft cast but that's not a guarantee of problem free shooting. In polygonally rifled barrels, pressure testing has shown that even 24BHN cast bullets can cause measurable discharge pressure increases "after only a few rounds fired".

Can you get away with it? You might--people do it all the time. But not everyone gets away with it and the problem is that there's not a simple, foolproof way to insure safety when mixing polygonal rifling and lead bullets.
 
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