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Nature Boy
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Bullet selection / shot placment / lethality
- Thread starter Nature Boy
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alsaqr
Member
Since 2000 nearly all my deer hunting has been done with a .50 or .54 caliber muzzleloader. Most are killed with an inline rifle shooting sabot bullets. Every year i take from 4-8 deer. i like the classic lung shot. About 25 percent of my kills are bang flops, 50 percent travel < 25 yards. Don't care if the bullet exits: Deer shot in the lungs seldom travel more than 75 yards. i seldom take shoulder shots because they waste meat.
Sometimes i shoot deer with patched round balls fired from .50 or .54 caliber rifles. Patched round balls at moderate ranges are great deer killers. A .50 or.54 caliber round ball often exits after expanding to nickel size.
Sometimes i shoot deer with patched round balls fired from .50 or .54 caliber rifles. Patched round balls at moderate ranges are great deer killers. A .50 or.54 caliber round ball often exits after expanding to nickel size.
Charliefrank
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Let' face it, critters are tough. Imho, head and neck shots are the only Guaranteed instant drop shots. All others whether double lung or boiler room or what have you , there are too many variables to say for shure what reaction your going to get.
1stmarine
Member
There are ways to inflict instant comma and with the type of game and weight of the animal plus angles and other factors the shock
factor gets more complicated exponentially.
It seems to me based on your deer harvested that you know what you are doing very well so probably could not add much but anyway, I have been
devoting to this "lethality" business some serous thought through the years as well as ballistics and forensic analysis and concluded on
a set of directives, most pretty familiar to experienced hunters.
We could talk for days about terminal design and specific properties in any single use including hand
gun usage but for the sake of simplicity and to see if we can answer some very fundamental questions
lets see if we can define a set of rules to assist with this process.
I keep a log of my shooting including hunts and also follow a few hunting forums to discuss some of
these but at the same time I see in other forums how people are following a completely different
set of directives so I wonder what other factors could be at play here.
My approach might seem pretty simplistic but I try to make sure we use some of the tools and knowledge base that
is already there. In some ways this should not be a lot different than checking ballistics data and values when reloading.
Of course there is no substitute for carefully studying the bullets and the game animals one is targeting, practicing with that ammo
for external ballistics and accuracy and ultimately knowing when to say no to make sure we don't hurt an animal unnecessarily.
When researching killing potential and in order to assure fast killing I move with a very simple set of dimensions:
A) Placement
B) Wounding Potential
C) Shock / CNS disruption potential
There is a strict relationship between these three dimensions that define terminal performance.
In addition, and in order to determine the potential of a given projectile, I look at the animal type, the type of bullet and try to match the
bullet to the body weight and animal type.
I consider five attributes to play a fundamental role in order to determine the killing potential and effectivness/speed of killing a round might have:
1) Caliber / Frontal section
2) Weight of the bullet
3) Speed at the target
4) The above determine sectional density and momentum
5) Finally and very important, terminal design / bullet construction. Understanding how that bullet works for that animal at different impact speeds.
Then by using tracking tables and/or popular software I will determine what type of value I need at the estimated hunting distances for the intended
game and heaviest possible weight.
I have been trying to devise a simple formula that can be corroborated with other tools and tables that sometimes are not prescriptive in nature.
Wild animals are tougher than most people think. Some they are hard to kill even with proven cartridges. It might take a small error or calculation
to mess up. With that said for the typical hunt in the typical conditions there are many bullets that will work really well and many know that so
there is no need to do a masters on this subject to get decent results.
We can talk more but initially let me give you some general observations.
Soft skin animals like white tail can be killed with popular rounds and bullets given good placement that is the first thing and key.
Once you get into larger deer and hogs you might need more momentum and bullets that can help derail the animal along with larger and deeper wounding.
Solid bullets work best at high impact speeds and since they are stout in nature they work well in both deer and hogs w/o fragmentation in most cases
even after hitting heavy joints.
Some bonded are very good at this too and also a great choice specially in the presence of bone so we can prevent unpredictable fragmentation.
Also with solid bullets one can afford less sectional density in exchange for speed at impact that is what makes these bullets to work best and transfer
energy faster.
Once we get to certain weight, bullets that activate faster and impact at high speeds might induce hydrostatic shock.
This is not always necessary but important understanding if that is desired but then one might have to consider anatomy and angle of the shot
to make sure this effect is produced in the plexus area. This is a shot that in a deer might ruin more meat but if needed for whatever the reason
can anchor the animal.
This is hard to do with compact calibers where people tend to be optimistic and works best with impact speeds above 2100fps or so depending
on caliber and other factors but as we drop form there we have to rely more on the wounding potential and we loose more of the shock potential.
Also many people produce a rather simplistic formula that is 1000ft-lbs for deer that might say something but might also not say much because
momentum and speed at impact might be more important than anything else and even shots with lots of energy but low speed and sd might lead
to pin hole wounding, that is why speed is key too.
That is why a 270 winchester or a 7mm/08 with bullets between 120gr-140gr are so effective in medium game with 3000+ fps loads. Also small
magnums like the 257 or 270 weatherby. While bullets might be modest weight they lean on speed that with predictable activation and terminal
behavior make them pretty consistent killers.
Then as caliber goes up, lets say 35, 375 and above so it does killing potential because section grows and even with modest still sectional density
and even lower speeds we see an increase in wounding because normally we get into heavier grain and more section.
As the bores get wider even flat metplats have the capability to displace a lot of water and create substantial cavities that is why
large bore calibers are so deadly at moderate ranges.
It is a matter of finding the right trade off between external ballistics needed (better for longer ranges) and the momentum, grain and section.
Ballistics is always a world of trade-offs of some sort.
BTW the 358 winchester and that BLR are proven meat factories.
...sorry for the long post... I hope I don't become boring.
This is what happens to a 154sst after hitting heavy bone...
1stmarine
Member
This is a good ilustration (with slow motion ) of what hyper-velocity rounds (3000fps+) + solid/tsx do when injected high in the plexus.
The animal goes into an instant comma induced by CNS disruption and then dies w/o consequences.
These are very technical shots and you also need the horse power.
A 7mm-08 or 308 with a 120 or 130gr would have produce the same results.
Again trade offs.
) of what hyper-velocity rounds (3000fps+) + solid/tsx do when injected high in the plexus.The animal goes into an instant comma induced by CNS disruption and then dies w/o consequences.
These are very technical shots and you also need the horse power.
A 7mm-08 or 308 with a 120 or 130gr would have produce the same results.
Again trade offs.
IMO, if we were generally hunting with African calibers, like 375 H&H, and upwards, we would
see a lot more DRTs. But deer run fast, all the time. If they're not resting or walking and grazing,
they're probably running. Running is a reflexive response, and they can cover 300-500 yards
deceptively quickly, even with massive tissue damage.
There is a theory about the "easy" DRTs. If the heart is pumping "up pressure", at the time of the
shot, and it's near the heart, supposedly the extra pressure of the bullet can cause the deer's
cardiovascular system to be over-pressured, and it will pass out. AFAIK, this is just a theory.
see a lot more DRTs. But deer run fast, all the time. If they're not resting or walking and grazing,
they're probably running. Running is a reflexive response, and they can cover 300-500 yards
deceptively quickly, even with massive tissue damage.
There is a theory about the "easy" DRTs. If the heart is pumping "up pressure", at the time of the
shot, and it's near the heart, supposedly the extra pressure of the bullet can cause the deer's
cardiovascular system to be over-pressured, and it will pass out. AFAIK, this is just a theory.
1stmarine
Member
IMO, it comes a point where more caliber does nothing extra. Is wasted energy and powder.
If one does something to transfer energy faster in thinner game then there is a risk to ruin a lot of meat.
Deer w/o a heart and lungs can run a bit but not far.
As @Nature Boy pointed out it saves the meat and in average conditions pretty easy to retrieve.
Ideally they will not jump into a ravine or worse.
The 358 winchester is a pretty versatile round for anything from goats and small white tail to large moose or even
a grizzly if needed (with the right bullets for each situation of course)
If one does something to transfer energy faster in thinner game then there is a risk to ruin a lot of meat.
Deer w/o a heart and lungs can run a bit but not far.
As @Nature Boy pointed out it saves the meat and in average conditions pretty easy to retrieve.
Ideally they will not jump into a ravine or worse.
The 358 winchester is a pretty versatile round for anything from goats and small white tail to large moose or even
a grizzly if needed (with the right bullets for each situation of course)
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SoonerMedic
Member
I'm just going to start hunting with the. 950 JDJ.... there will be no question about if my round is sufficient lol
caribou
Member
Sooner, I think you should at least use a hollow point for an ethical kill........
You won't be invited to Ohio with that!
agreed with the HP^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^. I'll also say that you ought to load up a good supply and bring that prairie dog hunting up here, I'd like to see that when they're half hidden behind a mound.
SoonerMedic
Member
1stmarine
Member
The chicken thing is no surprise. Politicians have been doing that for decades.
Loyalist Dave
Member
Hmmm...maybe you should try the double lung shot with an all lead, .530 caliber, patched, round ball.... moving 50 yards for me is rare...., well under fifty has been my experience. With a shoulder shot when they are quartering toward you "bang flop" is not unusual. I have had one 6-point run 100 yards with a double lung, but I shot him while he was evading a pack of fox hunting hounds, when he stopped at the sound of the hunter's horn to look behind him....., so he was full of adrenaline.
LD
That's about what I did with the good ol .303 one time
still though shot placement with that puppy should be more forgiving than the .223I wonder if that's why "running around like a chicken with their head cut off" is used so muchThe chicken thing is no surprise. Politicians have been doing that for decades.
stiab
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- Dec 9, 2007
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- 638
It is the norm if you use the high shoulder shot, they will fall down dead. But if you choose to shoot them thru the lungs, they will run. Pretty simple and predictable.
GooseGestapo
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That chicken reminds me of two occasions when I was growing up in N.E. Alabama in the '60's. Family would go to either of grand parents house on Sunday after church for dinner. Frequently, extra relatives would show up, and "another" chicken would get requisitioned. There were always a couple of dozen of chickens around as that's what rural survivors of the depression did.
The first time, I was about 10yrs old, at my paternal grandmothers home and was playing catch with a baseball with my younger brother in the front yard. My older brother was in the backyard with my mother "prepping" the chicken for the skillet. I heard voices, a commotion, and someone holler, "CATCH IT"!!! Just then, I looked up and saw a chicken fluttering over the roof of the house on a trajectory straight towards me. I raised my gloved hand just in time to keep it from hitting me. Of course it was spraying blood, and sprayed my white dress shirt with blood! A cardinal sin for which I later got whipped. (Actually a beating, but I digress)
Second time, A couple years later, I got conscripted into being the one who had to hold the chicken! My mother breathing threats of doom and mayhem if I let go of the hapless chicken. Whack! went the dull hatchet!! Not only did it not completely sever the chickens head, just like in the video; my mother tried to give it another whack, and got me on the right hand! I let go of the chicken, wailing in pain, bleeding, with the chicken launching in an identical trajectory over the house, head still attached by a thread of skin. That time it hit my younger brother playing catch with a younger cousin!
I got whipped for letting go of the chicken, my younger brother for getting his shirt bloody, and I didn't get to even eat the chicken because I was getting sewed up at the ER. My Dad told the ER staff the chicken "scratched" me. The surgeon just nodded and said "uh huh", and winked at me. He later showed me where his mother "hacked" him, fixing a chicken dinner!
"Running around like a chicken with its head cut off", was a meaningful euphemism to me and my brothers.
Thank God for Tyson and Perdue!!!
BTW, I once told Jeff Foxworthy we had to be related because he knew most of my relatives!
The first time, I was about 10yrs old, at my paternal grandmothers home and was playing catch with a baseball with my younger brother in the front yard. My older brother was in the backyard with my mother "prepping" the chicken for the skillet. I heard voices, a commotion, and someone holler, "CATCH IT"!!! Just then, I looked up and saw a chicken fluttering over the roof of the house on a trajectory straight towards me. I raised my gloved hand just in time to keep it from hitting me. Of course it was spraying blood, and sprayed my white dress shirt with blood! A cardinal sin for which I later got whipped. (Actually a beating, but I digress)
Second time, A couple years later, I got conscripted into being the one who had to hold the chicken! My mother breathing threats of doom and mayhem if I let go of the hapless chicken. Whack! went the dull hatchet!! Not only did it not completely sever the chickens head, just like in the video; my mother tried to give it another whack, and got me on the right hand! I let go of the chicken, wailing in pain, bleeding, with the chicken launching in an identical trajectory over the house, head still attached by a thread of skin. That time it hit my younger brother playing catch with a younger cousin!
I got whipped for letting go of the chicken, my younger brother for getting his shirt bloody, and I didn't get to even eat the chicken because I was getting sewed up at the ER. My Dad told the ER staff the chicken "scratched" me. The surgeon just nodded and said "uh huh", and winked at me. He later showed me where his mother "hacked" him, fixing a chicken dinner!
"Running around like a chicken with its head cut off", was a meaningful euphemism to me and my brothers.
Thank God for Tyson and Perdue!!!
BTW, I once told Jeff Foxworthy we had to be related because he knew most of my relatives!
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