Bullet selection / shot placment / lethality

[Nature Boy]

With a few threads running on bullet lethality I figured I’d add my thoughts to this thread.

My experience with Whitetails has been: They are tough. “Bang Flop” is rare. They generally run. How far they run is a combination of how tough the deer is and how leathal the shot placement and bullet selected is.

I’ve always been a fan of the double-lung shot. The deer usually won’t be “DRT” but they rarely go more than 50-70 yards, generally leave a good blood trail and it damages very little meat.

Last year I changed my shot placement strategy and decided to take the more classic “boiler room” approach. Last season I hit my quarry right behind the front leg at ~100 yards with a .35 caliber 180g Barnes TTSX at 2,300fps. The shot broke the shoulder and passed through. The deer managed to run 40 yards on 3 legs before falling over.


This year I used 2 different rifles on 2 separate deer with new loads.

My .30-06 load was a 180g sierra prohunter with 60g of RL22 traveling at 2,730fps. I shot a buck at 140 yards through both shoulders. He ran on his hind legs plowing the wheat field for a good 50 yards (as you can see from the mud on his chest) before falling over and expiring.



Bullet fragments took out most of the off side shoulder and I lost a good bit of meat

The second deer I took this year was with my .358 win using 48g of VV N140 pushing a 225g Sierra Gameking at 2,400fps. The shot entered right behind the front and fragments took out the off side shoulder. He also ran 40 yards before going down. Left very little in the way of a blood trail.

Here’s the entry-exit on him


Hard to believe that deer whacked like this go anywhere but straight to the ground but this is my experience. Whether double-lunged or in the boiler room, they generally run a ways before expiring

 

[gspn]

I've shot over 100 whitetail with a combination of 7 mm mag, 30-06, 12 gauge, 50 cal muzzle loader, and bow. I too take mostly double lung shots, and it is a rare event to see one drop where I shot it.

I've occasionally had to take a neck shot, but those were on closer deer and I had a solid rest. They dropped like a bag of hammers.

I've seen deer run a long way with devastating wounds. I once shot a buck at 7 yards with a 165 grain bullet from my 7 mag. I'm surprised the noise alone didn't force him to fall dead on the spot from a hear attack. I found a six foot wide circle of hair and absolutely no blood. Eventually I found him about 100 yards away. The blood trail didn't start until the 75 yard mark, then it was buckets of blood in every spot where he stopped. The autopsy showed that I blew the top half of his heart off...and still he ran like the wind.

The times when they drop on the spot I try to figure out why. Sometimes the answers are surprising. I once shot a 120 lb doe at just over 100 yards with my 7 mag. She dropped on the spot, which I found unusual due to the double-lung placement. When I was skinning her i noticed a large bulge in her fur along the backbone. As it turns out, that 7 mag bullet hit her, began to mushroom, and then went straight up to crack her back in half. I would never had guessed a bullet would turn like that, a 90 degree turn within a few inches of penetrating. Go figure.

The first deer I ever killed was a buck at a distance of 5-yards, shot with a 12 gauge slug. I hit him through the shoulder and he dropped as if God himself had punched him down into the dirt. I couldn't believe an animal could fall so fast...faster than gravity would suggest. I was too new to hunting to know about post mortem analysis at the time so I never got a good look at the wound channel. I assume the aforementioned heart attack might have taken him. I know it would kill me if I unexpectedly heard a 12 gauge shot at me from 5 yards.

Another issue you mention is bullet selection. For years I shot Federal Ballistic tips. They absolutely come apart inside a whitetail. Is that a bad thing? Not for my purposes. The shrapnel it creates turns the lungs into a jelly like consistency, and they simply do not go very far.

Others will swear by a solid bullet that creates an exit every time, and I can also see the utility in that. I once shot a buck with a solid copper bullet from my Knight muzzle loader. Upon inspection I found a perfectly symmetrical set of holes through his lungs. It was like a surgeon cut the circles in those organs. I was shocked at the hole that solid copper slug put in him.

Depending on where I might be hunting I might choose a different bullet structure. It's all about choices and matching your needs with the right equipment and tactics.

 

[Axis II]

I agree 100% I shot a nice buck last year about 50yards with 2-777 pellets and 250gr TC shockwave form a muzzleloader and he was broadside. I hit the lungs and he ran about 100yards and died in the creek. This year I hit a 140lbs field dressed doe at 60yards broadside with a 45-70 300gr JHP at about 1800fps and she went about 200yards and died in the creek. This years buck was shot right in the neck for some crazy reason and dropped in his tracks also with the 45-70 combo. I hit a deer a few years ago with a crossbow, 450gr arrow with 125gr slick trick mag at 30yards quartering away and hit one lung and he ran 50yards, threw up blood and dropped. 45min later we walked up to him and he gets back up and goes another 50yards where he expired. Last year my buddy hit a doe with the crossbow and it was quartering too and the arrow and intestine was hanging out of the hole and she went 75yards dropped in front of me, got back up and ran 10yards and dropped and back up for 10yards and expired. The will to live in wild animals is very strong.

Very nice deer natureboy! I really like pictures.

 

[stringnut]

My experience pretty much goes along with everyone who posted so far. Usually run a bit. One broken shoulder will not generally flatten them. Both front shoulder drops the front end. Along with nature I have had them go surprising distances with just the front legs. Central nervous system damage is the only thing that drops them DRT every time. Shot over 80 deer and that is my experience. The wife has shot around half that and her results are the same. Those that say that put them down instantly every time must know some trick we dont.

 

[Fine Figure of a Man]

I shot a doe a couple weeks ago at 150 yards with a 45-70, 405 grain cast bullet. She ran about 45 yards. When I field dressed her the heart fell out in two pieces.

 

[gspn]

When I field dressed her the heart fell out in two pieces.

Wow, I guess you CAN die of a broken heart.

 

[Art Eatman]

Most of my whitetail hunting was during the years of an annual two-buck limit in Texas. I've tagged some four dozen or so bucks, as best I recall. .243 and '06, about half and half.

Mostly bang-flop neck shots, but for two head shots with the .243. Very few heart/lung shots.

I never had to track any of them. Most shots were inside of 200 yards, except for one cross-body at 350 and a frontal heart-hit at 450; both '06. Both were bang-flops.

I can recall only three coup de grace shots; not really needed, but reduced the dying time.

 

[caribou]

I hunt for a living and I am in total agreement with Nature Boy.

From my experience, lot of it depends on where and when you hunt.

Winter here in the Arctic is loooong.....but not as long as it used to be, forsure.

Luckily I mostly hunt on the open Tundra. We shoot for the head/neck when close enough, or double lung, behind the front quarters if were further back. Then we give the animals ''Time to die'' as the holes in them take effect, and we dont want to shoot them up. Just takes time to bleed out, and thats not a bad thing for meat. However , we dont allow excessive suffering, and if the animals down and we get to it (Walking over Tundra in Summer or Winter is difficult and slow) we slice the throat, but thats usually not the case.

The sound of the hit and the animals reactions often tells us ''if'' and often ''where'' we hit, if we dont actually see the hit, when it occurs.

''Bang Flops'' are nice, but not the rule in Winter here, for sure, it often depends on the Season and how close we can get, and approaching game in Winter in the open is always a challenge....summer much easier, Fall is just feet away

 

[Nature Boy]

So is it safe to say that “bang flop” and “DRT” is like saying “MOA all day”

Sure, it happens, but it’s not the norm, and to claim that its every time with X gun or Y caliber might be stretching the truth a bit?

 

[FL-NC]

My 3 rifle rounds for deer: 223- 75 grain Hornady BTHPM ; 243- 100 grain win power point, 308- Federal fusion 150 grain. Shots are either classic broadside just behind the shoulder, or neck shots. I mostly get DRT, occasionally get a runner (always DRT on neck shots). Runners usually go 50 yards or less, very seldom any more, and never over 100. In all cases when I got a runner, had blood trails a blind man could follow. My system works, at least for me. No reason to change anything IMO.

 

[VoodooMountain]

Cns hits cause drt results but are hard to achieve in the field. I also remember reading an article some time ago about research that indicated heart shots that cause hydraulic shock and also happen to occur when as the heart is in the middle of its pump causes drt like results. Good luck trying to do that.


I think for the average hunter the ability to leave a blood trail and ethically take game are what matters. So anthrougn and through shot with a double lung that allows the heart to keep pumping blood out of the leaky holes for a little bit all while presenting a good size target.

I saw a video online that showed a 50bmg hit on a deer. Good hit to boiler room but deer ran 40 -50 yards. Damage on inspection showed a huge gaping softball hole on exit.

 

[Nature Boy]

My 3 rifle rounds for deer: 223- 75 grain Hornady BTHPM ; 243- 100 grain win power point, 308- Federal fusion 150 grain. Shots are either classic broadside just behind the shoulder, or neck shots. I mostly get DRT, occasionally get a runner (always DRT on neck shots). Runners usually go 50 yards or less, very seldom any more, and never over 100. In all cases when I got a runner, had blood trails a blind man could follow. My system works, at least for me. No reason to change anything IMO.

I don’t usually take neck shots. That seems to be the conventional wisdom that a neck shot will drop them in their tracks. I’ve been deer hunting for a long time and never hit one in the neck. Not adverse to trying it, but it would have to be doe, a cull buck or by accident

Ps, theres a lot of good meat in the neck

 

[gspn]

I don’t usually take neck shots. That seems to be the conventional wisdom that a neck shot will drop them in their tracks. I’ve been deer hunting for a long time and never hit one in the neck. Not adverse to trying it, but it would have to be doe, a cull buck or by accident

I don't take them as a matter of course, a few situations come to mind where i used them. The first was a big buck that was walking directly under my stand. It was hot out that day and I piled up all my extra gear at the base of the tree. He dang near stepped in my stuff and spooked really bad, then took off running. He ran about 50 yards and stopped with a huge oak between us. All i could see was the tip of his nose through my scope. He eventually cranked his head around to check the wind and when he did that he exposed much of his neck. I pounded him and he dropped immediately.

Another time I was stalking a hilly set of mature hardwoods and ended up getting behind a buck. He was walking away from me at the bottom of a draw. I was maybe 60 yards behind him in the woods. He'd walk, and I'd stalk. It became clear he'd never turn broadside so I put the crosshairs on the back of his neck a few inches below where his spine met his skull, and sent him one. He just disappeared from my scope when he dropped.

One more that I can think of right off the top of my head is another stalking hunt. I was stalking an ATV trail through the same rolling hardwoods. I was easing along and saw a buck making a scrape. I took a knee to get a better look through the scope and he saw me.

There was a small rise between us and all I could see of him was his neck and head, his entire body was shielded by the hill. We then became locked in a staring contest. He was trying to figure out what he saw 60 yards away, and I was trying to figure out how long I could stay kneeling before my leg fell off. I don't know how much time passed, but I knew I couldn't kneel much longer, so I shot him in the throat. He didn't take a step, and he never did figure out what he was looking at.

 

[Armored farmer]

Big bucks are tough critters.

 

[entropy]

There are to many variables involved; One of them not often considered is the deer's state of alertness when shot. My first buck was following a doe with his nose to the ground, never knew I was there. .30-06 150 Partition, 50 yds., DRT, aorta shot. Second was being chased through a swamp by a hunter that sounded like a tank brigade going through, the deer popped up onto the logging road I was on, 65 yards away, I shot. He ran seventy-five yards and ducked under a log-we found him the next morning. .30-06, 165 Partition, again aorta shot. Third one was trotting towards my Dad's rattling, I whistled to stop him at 35 yards. 12 ga. Hornady sabot slug, aorta shot, went two steps. Next one had been shot at on the next farm over, was trotting 50 yards in front of me, my son coughed, and I shot when the buck stopped. Aorta shot, same Hornady sabot, he went 75 yards into a wood lot.

 

[BigBore45]

Why such big calibers/bullets on little deer? That serria you used in ur 06 is for elk/moose sized game. That may play a roll in the death times. I'm in Kansas and we have big deer. I run 150 grain serria in a 308 at around 2900 fps. Half of the deer I have shot are bang flops the other half don't make it 20-30 yards. That is 99% of well over 50 deer shot. The only gun i ever had a problem with was a .243 and 100 gr. Vmax. I have used 45 colt. .223 .308 30-06. .243. Never had one go that far. I shoot from 40 yards to 500 yards. If close I shoot neck, if far I do boiler room or lungs. Crazy. It could well be I just have weak deer in my hunting area.

 

[jmorris]

I have seen a deer, blown off its feet, hitting the ground on its back, get up and run the better part of 100 yds and when cut open, you couldn’t tell what was what, a big pile of inside soup.

I have also seen one not take a single step, simply drop where she stood, from a spine shot with a .25.

I have seen an old cull buck get hit with 3, 150gn SP bullets going just over 2800 FPS after the first impact, he twitched like he was trying to get a fly off of him, the second impact had him jolt enough he picked up a leg and shook a little harder, the third, he took off and ran in a circle right back to where he was standing to begin with before collapsing, could touch all 3 hits with one hand on the left shoulder.

Never know what your going to get.

 

[stringnut]

DRT may mean different things to different people. To me it means the deer drops in its tracks. If it takes one step or jumps it is not a DRT shot. I have broken the front shoulders and have them only push a foot or two. Still doesn't count as DRT to me.

 

[jmr40]

I think it is hard to predict how each individual will react. I've seen deer drop in their tracks and never move when hit with a 60 gr 223 that hit the lungs and never exited. And I've seen them run over 100 yards after a 165 gr 30-06 bullet destroyed both lungs and left a huge exit hole. Most of the game I've shot, or seen shot traveled a short distance, around 20-30 yards after being hit regardless of the rifle or bullet used.

I think the key is knowing what the bullet you've chosen is designed to do and using it the way it was designed. #1, stay away from bullets designed for varmints when hunting big game. I varmint bullet in a 223 or 30-06 will result in poor performance.

Recognize that harder premium bullets designed for max penetration usually take longer to put game down. These types of bullets are great if you need to shoot elk at bad angles and need lots of penetration to reach vitals. Just understand that they rarely create those bag/flop kills. A 130 lb whitetail hit in the lungs may well run 50-100 yards even when hit with a magnum round with these bullets.

Softer, more rapidly expanding bullets are more likely to result in bang/flop kills if placement is good. Or at least limit the distance traveled after being hit. But don't ask those bullets to penetrate deep, especially from bad angles. This is when you get wounded animals that can run for very long distances and they may never be recovered.

True bullet, or cartridge failures are extremely rare. Most of the time the bullet does exactly what it was designed to do, the shooter just asked a bullet to do a job it wasn't meant for.

 

[hq]

I may have been just lucky but of all the deer I've shot, approximately half have dropped where they've stood. The other half have ran an average of 40-50 yards unless I've managed to get a follow-up shot in. I always go for the heart and the best stopper I've come across has been .308 180gr Norma Oryx with a close to 100% DRT-rate from various angles. On the other end of the spectrum is .44 240gr Hydra-Shok with ~0% DRT-rate, even though running distances have never exceeded 20 yards.

There's no telling what exactly is going to happen. It's hunting and a degree of uncertainty is always a part of it.

 

[BWS]

Deer hunt with hopped up recurves/longbows now cause my four grown sons all hunt too and we don't need THAT much meat....

But back when I was hammering them;had a VG run of several years of bang flops.It was an early stainless Savage 06.It kept getting more and more accurate with Sierra 150 GK's & 4350,the more you stuffed in it.Ended up over book loads that were right at that point where the pressure needle was high yellow bordering on red line.

1/4'ing away shots through the chest,shooting for far shoulder.Had about 10 (does and bucks) straight that got poleaxed with that combo.Then started having real good success with FB Speer,I think they're 95g.......243's.Jacked up reloads,running again a touch over book with 4350.Dbl lung and they'd drop within spitting distance.

As said above,lots of factors involved.Shot angle I'd rank first then bullet construction,size,speed.But just about the time you seen it all,something comes along and changes the perspective?

 

[Armored farmer]

The only real DRT deer of the 40 or so that I have taken in the last 40 years was taken with the old original percussion rifle in my avatar.
Shot placement was 1inch below the eye. In the last moments of legal light on the last day of 2015 season. That was the only shot I had, that or nothing.

For me a DRT is in the central nervous system. So it' more shot placement issue than a caliber issue.

 

[Captcurt]

Thinking back, the last nine rifle kills were with 243, 6.5 Creed and 300 WSM. 4 were DRT's were all with the 300. A 150 gr Speer at 3200 fps is a game changer. Shots ranged from 25-225 yards. Shot a doe on the nose at 25 yards. She didn't even kick. The 225 yard shot was a broadside, behind the shoulder and it looked like the rug had been jerked out form under it. The doe hit the ground so hard that I swear she bounced.

I would guess that probably 25% of my kills drop on the spot. Most run 20-100yards with just about all of the different calibers that I have used. I do have to give credit to high velocity rounds like the 300 WSM and the 257 Weatherby. They seem to get the job done with less tracking.

 

[Stevenvalleyky]

I would suggest some reading on ballisticstudies.com. Good article about hydrostatic shock as well as reading about the individual calibers. For instance, on the article about 308 win, there is a listing of most various factory ammo, and hand load bullets and their ability to kill various animals quickly. LOTS of great info there that can help choose the correct bullet for each situation.
As jmr40 stated, too tough a bullet usually leads to long blood trails unless the impact velocity is really high. Faster expanding bullets are more likely to result in DRT, but cannot be used for bad shot angles or too high impact velocities.

 

[MCgunner]

Wow, I have not had these running for miles experiences. Most of the deer I've shot, usually high shoulder, pile up right in their tracts. One I shot this year ran about 20 yards, maybe 30. I shot it quartering into the point of the shoulder, bullet exited the last few ribs. It was shot with a 62 grain Barnes TSX from an M4 at about 30 yards.

Of all the deer I've shot with my .257 Roberts, couple of dozen over the years, all have fallen in their tracks, even a few that were on the run. The one that didn't, I tried a 117 grain Interlock, didn't expand at all. I went back to Sierra 100 Game Kings. I had a couple go 20-30 yards hit with my .30-30 contender. The 7 mag and the .308 have planted all comers in their tracks. The one that went the fartherest was hit in the front chest with a 7.62x39 firing a 135 grain Sierra pro hunter. I only got one lung on her (a doe), poor shot placement, but it's what I had and I did recover the deer. I had practically the same head on presentation some years ago, hunting with my CVA Wolf, 385 grain Hornady Great Plains 50 caliber Minie. That one dropped DRT.....a little more medicine than the SKS.

I whacked a doe at 80 yards with a .357 magnum lever carbine, Keith style SWC, double lung. She went about 25 yards and dropped.

I guess either I'm danged lucky, the deer here are smaller than what you all are shooting (usually they are), or I'm just danged good.